Finance Committee on Dec. 10th, 2021

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I'm going to give the floor to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné. She will ask the first question, which relates to my point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you may go ahead.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is directed to you, Mr. Chair, and the clerk. I want to follow up on my fellow member's question. As I understand it, the Minister of Canadian Heritage was invited four times this week to appear before the committee. Have you received any answer from him?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Are you questioning the witnesses?

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

My question is for the clerk, Mr. Chair. Did we hear back from Mr. Rodriguez further to the committee's invitations?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

This is the time for members to ask the witnesses questions. This is not a question for the witnesses. It would have to come as a point of order.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Very well.

I was very keen to bring this to the committee's attention. The clerk told us that the minister had indeed been invited and that we had not heard back from him yet.

Now, my fellow member Ms. Larouche will continue with questions for the witnesses.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Chair, please keep in mind that I gave Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné some of my time simply so she could provide that additional information to committee members on the record. We wanted to be told on the record that the committee had still not received confirmation as to whether Mr. Rodriguez would be appearing, despite the repeated invitations that were sent to him. That is my understanding. I received the email about it earlier.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Is this a point of order?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I was under the impression that I could give some of my time to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné so she could ask a follow‑up question that wasn't for the witnesses, and that is what I did.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You did that as a point of order.

Go ahead, Madam Sinclair-Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

No, that was part of the six minutes we have to question witnesses. Mr. Chair, with your permission, we can move right into our questions for the witnesses. We got the answers we were looking for.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

The time that you have in the rounds of questions is for the witnesses. As far as the point of order is concerned, it was answered by the clerk and by the chair.

Your time continues to run.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Over to you, Ms. Larouche.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Very good.

I am quite glad to have the Canada Revenue Agency officials with us today.

I am here as the critic for seniors. I have a vitally important question for the CRA officials about the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB. It concerns seniors who were victims of a guaranteed income supplement, or GIS, clawback because they received the CERB during the pandemic, even though they were entitled to the benefit after losing their job.

Keep in mind that the CERB was not flexible. There was no option to claim anything other than the allocated $2,000. That was the case for everyone. Anyone who lost their job during the pandemic was eligible to receive that amount.

Right now, those seniors' GIS payments are being cut. This summer, the Bloc Québécois, with the support of my colleague Gabriel Ste‑Marie, wrote to the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Seniors to inform them of the situation.

Before the election campaign, groups had reached out to us about these massive cuts. From the accounts I heard, people's payments were cut by an average of $400. We got the figures this week: 183,000 seniors have lost an average of $3,500 this year. On top of that, 83,000 seniors saw their GIS payments virtually disappear. We are talking about a crucial source of income, money that goes only to the poorest of seniors.

The issue was brought to the attention of the minister responsible for the CRA as early as June 2020 by family economics groups, including Quebec's Association coopérative d'économie familiale. They wrote to the minister about their concerns regarding the GIS and the post-pandemic impact. Seniors groups had already written to the minister responsible for the CRA about the potentially negative impacts these GIS cuts could have.

I'd like to hear what the CRA officials have to say about this. I was told that people had sent letters as early as June 2020 to raise the uncertainty around the fact that seniors might see their GIS payments reduced because they had received the CERB. In November 2021, my fellow member Mr. Ste‑Marie and I each wrote to the minister responsible for our respective areas once again, in other words, the Minister of Finance, Ms. Freeland, and the new Minister of Seniors, Ms. Khera. We are still looking for solutions.

I'm looking for details on the GIS reductions for CERB recipients.

[Frank Vermaeten]

Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to try to answer that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes. Please go ahead, if you can answer the question.

Members, please point your questions to the witness you'd like to answer the question.

[Frank Vermaeten]

Thank you very much for the question.

In calculating social benefits, the way the system generally works is that you're looking at an individual's income for the prior year. Individuals submit their tax return; their income is calculated, and that income is used by both the CRA and other departments, as well as provinces and territories, in terms of some of the benefits they might pay. We generally use net income.

The departments, in this case ESDC, would then use the information feed that we provide to calculate the GIS, etc. They're the department responsible for that, based on the income that we provide, which is always going to be the same.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The Bloc Québécois actually put forward solutions to the GIS problem. Exceptional situations call for exceptional solutions. In light of the pandemic, the fact that the CERB was not flexible and the fact that seniors entitled to the GIS can work and earn income up to a certain threshold, we proposed that the CERB be treated as work income, not another benefit, so as not to completely penalize seniors.

What's more, it's important to make sure the amount is recalculated, regardless of where the claim was made. It should be based on actual income for the year.

Is that something that could be considered?

[Frank Vermaeten]

As I said, we provide the information to ESDC. ESDC is the department that does the calculation and, based on their legislation and regulations, they will determine how much an individual receives in GIS.

That said, I do understand that the Minister of Finance has made a statement with respect to this—that they are looking for a solution—but this is a complex issue when you're looking at individuals' incomes. In this case, because individuals got CERB in some cases—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Vermaeten. We are now—

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

If the CERB is treated as work income, changes to the legislation would be necessary. Do I understand that correctly?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's the end of your time.

We'll now go to the NDP.

Welcome, Mr. Julian. I know you've been a long-time member of this committee, and we welcome you here today.

Go ahead for six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very happy to be back here.

Congratulations on your election as chair of the committee, taking over from Wayne Easter, chair of the committee in the last Parliament.

I would also like to thank the witnesses for their service to the country throughout the pandemic.

I have a number of questions. If you've got the answer, please give it. If not, I'll move on to the next question. I'm looking for responses in writing in all of these cases.

My first question is with regard to the Canada child benefit. How many recipients experienced a decrease in their CCB because they received payments from a COVID-19 financial support program? What was the average monthly reduction in their CCB payment?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I don't have that statistic available. I can tell you, looking at the latest numbers that I've seen, that it's not a particularly unusual year with respect to what happens every year. Some people will get more and some people will get less, because incomes fluctuate.

I didn't see any significant change in that, but we can provide additional statistics. I just don't have them off the top of my head.