Finance Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 87 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, April 20, 2023, the committee is meeting to discuss the subject matter of Bill C-47, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 28, 2023, as well as divisions 10 to 31, 35, 36, 38 and 39.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute it when you are not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, there is a choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses. With us today, we have 14 departments and 48 officials. Due to the limited time, I won't be recognizing all of you by name, but on behalf of the committee and in advance of the many questions you will be answering as best you can, we want to thank you. Thank you for your work on the budget. Thank you for being before us for this committee meeting and for this study.

When answering questions, please commence with your name, department and title.

I understand that Mr. Graeme Hamilton will be making some quick opening remarks, and then we will commence with a round of questions from the members.

Members, please note that some of the witnesses are in the adjacent room with a simultaneous audio and video feed. Please be mindful when posing your questions to give them a chance to arrive in our room. The clerk and I will take the time to do that into consideration when calculating your allotted time for asking questions.

We will also leave a seat open—I believe it's number 22—here at our table for anybody entering the room or coming from the back and joining us at the table to answer questions.

Mr. Hamilton is going to make his opening remarks.

I see a hand up. Go ahead MP Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning.

I have a quick point of order. A few weeks ago, the Department of Finance officials pledged to provide the committee with a detailed list of planned expenditures for the $80 billion in green economy and transition funding. I'd like to follow up with the department on that. The clerk also followed up.

The information is especially important since Bill C‑47 introduces mechanisms that put the money beyond Parliament's control. That's why we need the information before we vote on Bill C‑47.

Mr. Chair, I'd also like to know whether we have a date scheduled for the Minister of Finance's appearance on Bill C‑47.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I believe we have PS Beech.

Do you want to speak to the minister's appearance?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Yes. I'll speak to both.

It would certainly be helpful to try to get any information that Gabriel needs.

With regard to the ministerial appearance, we haven't selected a specific day, but the minister has committed to appearing prior to the 18th. We're just trying to get a finalized time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay. Thank you, PS Beech.

Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

I have looked to the clerk. We have made the request, and we will ensure that the request is followed up on.

Now we're going to Mr. Hamilton for some opening remarks, please.

[Graeme Hamilton, Director General, Traveller, Commercial and Trade Policy, Canada Border Services Agency]

First off, I'd like to say good morning to the members of this committee and to my colleagues from across the Government of Canada.

I am Graeme Hamilton, director general of traveller, commercial and trade policy at the Canada Border Services Agency.

I'd like to thank all of you for inviting this diverse group of people to come and answer your questions. We're here to answer to the best of our ability any questions you may have on our particular measures contained within the BIA, which is in front of you.

With that, I'll turn it over to you for any questions you may have.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you very much for those opening remarks, Mr. Hamilton.

We have many officials here with us. I know members will have many questions.

We're going right into the question rounds.

In the first round, each party will have up to six minutes to ask questions, pausing of course if there is any transition time with the witnesses.

We are starting with the Conservatives. I have MP Chambers up for six minutes, please.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, everyone.

I have questions for Mrs. Thomas. If she's not at the table, I'll give some time for her to come in.

Thank you for all of your hard work on the budget. It takes a lot of effort to do that.

This is my first opportunity to mark the passing of Gordon Lightfoot, who was a resident.... He was born and raised in Orillia, Ontario. He was a Canadian music legend. He is to Canadian music what the Group of Seven is to art. I'm sure we'll do tributes to him in the House later today.

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas, for being here. I have some questions about operating costs and people.

I'm curious how many individuals will be hired as a result of the measures in the first budget bill.

[Nicole Thomas, Executive Director, Costing, Charging and Transfer Payments, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you for the question.

I'm Nicole Thomas, executive director in the financial management sector at Treasury Board Secretariat.

There is no new funding being requested to implement this measure. As it relates largely to streamlining processes and introducing flexibilities, implementation of the amendments is not expected to require any additional FTEs.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Sorry, is that for all the measures in the budget bill?

[Nicole Thomas]

That's with respect to division 12 in the Service Fees Act.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

What about all of the measures in the budget bill?

[Nicole Thomas]

It's not within my area of responsibility. I don't have those details.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. Is that information that somebody from Treasury Board would be able to provide?

[Nicole Thomas]

I can certainly take it back to my colleagues.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

Last year when we asked the question, they said it was a Treasury Board question. We didn't have anyone from Treasury Board at our hearings last year.

We care about this because, one, we're in a very tight labour market, and two, we've seen significant growth in the public service. Both the Parliamentary Budget Officer and the Auditor General have expressed concerns about the lack of a fulsome human resource management people plan across departments.

I think every project or new fund that gets created has some kind of operating cost. If you would take some of these questions back, it would be very helpful for us as we deliberate.

Thank you for your time.

I'll move to those here who know a bit about the dental care plan. I have a couple of questions.

Thank you very much. Please introduce yourself.

[Lindy VanAmburg, Director General, Policy and Programs, Dental Care Task Force, Department of Health]

Good morning. I'm Lindy VanAmburg. I'm the director general responsible for policy and program design around the dental care commitments the government has made at Health Canada.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

We see a $13-billion cost over five years. I think that's projected for the plan. I'm curious, and I think some of my colleagues are. Does that number include an assumption made for the uploading of individuals who are currently covered today but who may not be covered in the future?

I'll explain, just so we're clear. We are already seeing private sector employers carving out individuals who could be covered by the federal plan but who are already covered by the private plan.

I'm curious about whether you're making an assumption that individuals will have their plans uploaded to the federal government, whether it be from the provincial government or from the private sector.

[Lindy VanAmburg]

The estimate included in the budget measures—the $13 billion over five years—is based on our current best estimates of Canadians who are within the income threshold, which is a family income below $90,000 a year, and who are currently uninsured.

The estimate is for what we would call “displacement”, which is additional money that would come to the government if somebody didn't maintain their current plan. However, I would say the measure included here that would compel employers to report whether they offer coverage or not is in part intended to make sure that we can track who currently has insurance and who doesn't.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

If someone has coverage today and their employer carves them out the following year, will they not be covered by the federal plan?

[Lindy VanAmburg]

If they are not insured, they would be eligible. If they are insured, they would not be eligible.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

The $13 billion is just a number that represents those who are currently uninsured.

[Lindy VanAmburg]

Yes. It is our current best estimate.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

It's possible that this number could actually increase substantially as private sector individuals and provinces.... In fact, I've seen a couple of instances where provinces are no longer covering certain individuals who fall in the eligibility category.

[Lindy VanAmburg]

We've only been able to estimate based on who we know now is eligible. It's something we'll watch carefully as things change over time, if they do.