Finance Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

We believe in investing in health care—

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I have one final question—

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

We believe in investing in child care. We believe in investing in a green transition. If the Conservatives don't agree to do that, they should be clear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Minister and MP Chambers, please, let's not have cross-talk.

MP Chambers, I know you're always very strict on your time, but I am allowing flexibility with your time.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

Many people in this room in the government have said they like Keynes. Everyone gets the first part, which is that in a downturn or in economic uncertainty, we must spend. They always forget the second part, which is you have to pay the money back.

Through an entire cycle, we haven't paid any money back. The government said it was just going to run a couple of small deficits when it started. Now, they're as far as the eye can see.

I appreciate that you've come here to committee today. I think Mr. Blaikie has had some good suggestions.

Part of the reason we're having trouble is that we've asked you to come on a couple of different occasions and at least quarterly until inflation comes back down.

Will you return, when the governor returns to this committee, to answer more questions specifically about inflation? That invitation has been made.

Can we count on you coming back when the governor comes back?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

You've made a whole bunch of assertions and I'm going to take them one by one.

On fiscal responsibility, as I said, I think there is a real, genuine difference of view between the Conservatives and the Liberals. We believe in investing in Canada and in Canadians. We believe in investing in our country's economic capacity. We believe in investing in the green transition. I don't think the Conservatives believe in that, although the Conservatives have refused to put forward a positive economic policy, so it's hard to tell.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Respectfully, Minister, the question is, will you come back to the committee? That's the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

The time is now well well past, so we will now move to our final questioner. That will be—

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

It's not well past.

I would like to give the minister an opportunity to respond to this simple question of whether she's coming back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP MacDonald.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Maybe I'm the last speaker; I don't know. I'm sitting here listening to my colleague, the honourable member for whom I have the utmost respect, call COVID a party. I'm not sure about his province, but it sure as hell wasn't a party in my province.

I want to thank the minister and the government for the investments they made in health care. There's not a person on Prince Edward Island, which I represent, who would refute the investments that we're making in health care.

Our economy has shown resilience against many shocks, including the illegal invasion of Ukraine and COVID-19, both of which have placed many external pressures on our economy and economies globally.

You look at the fiscal responsibility of budget 2023 and the targeted spend that you created. When you listen to people like the Governor of the Bank of Canada and his response, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, and the previous governor and many economists, they all say the same thing: If Canada wasn't in the position that we were in prior to COVID-19, we wouldn't likely be having these conversations here today.

You're going to go down in the history books as being a tremendous Minister of Finance who took this country through tumultuous times.

Back to health care, I want to be quick on health care. I was pleased, obviously, with the investments and the targeted investments.

Can you just expand on what those investments are going to do for the provinces?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Yes, I sure can.

I do think, once we got past some of the sound and fury, we have been getting to, in this conversation today, some of the really important philosophical and policy choices that are before Canadians right now.

I think the big choice is this: Do you believe in investing in Canada, and investing in our social welfare system and our economic capacity, while maintaining a fiscally responsible path, or do you not support those investments?

I really think, at the end of the day, that's the economic political choice before Canadians. The answer for me is 100% clear. We do need to find a balance between fiscal responsibility and compassion. S&P tells me we've done the fiscally responsible side of that, and we have also made the investments we need to keep the Canadian economy going and to keep Canadians healthy and safe starting with the investment in health care.

Going back to the fiscal responsibility issue that we were discussing a minute ago, I really think the Conservatives have to look at themselves in the mirror and ask this: How can they talk about fiscal responsibility when they were calling for us to cut EI premiums and to cut our contributions to the CPP? That is not fiscal responsibility. That is fiscal recklessness. Our government believes in doing the tough things that you need to do to make compassionate investments in Canadians and to be fiscally responsible. That's what this budget does. We're going to keep on doing that.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have a minute and a half.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I have a quick point of order.

I would like to invite the minister to stay for an extra hour. I think she's acquitted herself very well today. I think she would do well to be here for another hour, and the rest of the committee would do well by having her here.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

That is not a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That is not a point of order, MP Lawrence.

We have a minute and half with MP MacDonald.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

I cede my time to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Chatel, you have the last minute and a half.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the honourable member. If we hadn't had all those points of order, I might have had a chance to ask a question. Don't be too disappointed. I'm the one who should be.

Minister, thank you for meeting with the committee, even though we weren't able to invite you formally.

One of the very important measures in the budget pertains to the general anti-avoidance rule amendments. There's a lot of talk about fiscal prudence, but fundamentally, we need to ensure the integrity of our tax system. Can you tell us why those measures are important for Canadians?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you for your question, Mrs. Chatel. I very much appreciate your expertise as an economist and someone who used to work at the Department of Finance. Your old colleagues are here today, as are your new ones.

I firmly believe in the importance of a fair tax system. We talked about the importance of investing in Canada's economy, in the green transition and in health care, but to make those investments, we need revenue. To have revenue, we need a tax system that is fair and efficient. That is why we got rid of tax loopholes in the budget, and I want to thank Mr. Jovanovic and his team for their work. This is very important, and it's one of the reasons why the political game-playing really needs to stop. We have to keep doing this work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Freeland.

Thank you, Mrs. Chatel.

Thank you very much, Minister Freeland and your officials, for appearing before our committee. Thank you for being with us and for answering many of the members' questions.

I do see your hand up, Minister Freeland.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Yes.

You know, I was taught as a child in Sunday school, as many of us were, that “Blessed are the peacemakers”. Much as I really believe that appeasing bullies is a mistake, that's an important lesson, too. In response to the peacemaking plea of Daniel, if people have the time and the energy, I'd be happy to hang out for as much time as the committee has available today—before question period. I'll have to leave at question period.