Finance Committee on April 13th, 2026

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

We just need to clarify. What I understand is that, often, when people go bankrupt, they have two, three or four credit cards and use one credit card to pay off another. You understand the phenomenon.

Is that mainly what you're seeing? They still have to pay the rent and groceries.

[Guyllaume Amiot]

In fact, what we're seeing is really the use of high‑rate credit, which leads to insolvency.

That said, why are they using credit? It's often because their budget isn't balanced, precisely because expenses have increased significantly while revenue hasn't increased as much. Grocery and housing expenses can affect a budget. Sometimes, it's even the mortgage payment that has increased with interest rates or the value of the residence.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In your opinion, people who use credit cards do so mainly because they are unable to pay their rent. As a result, they used their credit card. Is that correct?

[Guyllaume Amiot]

Actually, it's mostly everyday consumer spending. We're seeing fewer people paying for their big-ticket items with a credit card. Instead, they are paying recurring expenses.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay. Connect the dots for me. Earlier, we were talking about the COVID‑19 years. Have you heard the anecdote that even companies helping people with insolvency went bankrupt, because there were so many fewer bankruptcies? Have you heard that?

[Guyllaume Amiot]

No, I haven't heard that story.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

It's a pretty funny anecdote.

Yes, there were a lot fewer bankruptcies during the pandemic, because people changed their behaviour. Savings and debt repayments have increased.

Draw me a parallel between people's behaviour during COVID‑19 and in normal times. You talked about people coming to see you for housing and the increase in the cost of living. However, during COVID‑19, the cost of living went up significantly, and food and car prices went up, but savings went up and debt went down. To help people clearly understand the difference in consumer behaviour, explain to me the duality between what happened during the pandemic and what you were explaining earlier about what's happening today. The cost of groceries and other things have gone up, and people have used their credit cards, but why was it the other way around during COVID‑19?

[Guyllaume Amiot]

Again, it's interesting. What I understand from the statistics I've seen is that—

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm not talking about statistics, I'm talking about your work.

[Guyllaume Amiot]

Yes. Costs went up during the pandemic, but there was also significant inflation in the postpandemic period. That's something to consider.

In addition, during the pandemic, people got a lot of government assistance, which often made it possible to balance their budget. People who had precarious jobs managed to receive various government benefits, which enabled many to set up an emergency fund or save money. Obviously, those savings are—

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I would just like to understand something: Are you telling me that people got richer thanks to government payments? You said they used them to set up a fund.

[Guyllaume Amiot]

I'm not saying that they got richer, but at the time, getting government benefits helped some people have some kind of emergency fund, because there were fewer expenses and fewer outings because restaurants were closed. That's more what happened.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Let's go back to the people who paid off their credit cards and saved a lot. They didn't get government cheques. How did they manage to do that, whereas people aren't doing that now?

[Guyllaume Amiot]

Unfortunately, those people don't come to my office. I wouldn't be able to comment on that part of the population.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Amiot.

Mr. Schwartz, you said earlier that there are banks that don't contribute to accredited organizations like yours. You're a non-profit organization. Which bank is not contributing to Canada?

You opened the door. I would ask you to answer quickly.

[The Vice-Chair (Jasraj Hallan), Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Give a short answer, please.

[Jeffrey Schwartz]

It's a great question, and I wish I had a complete answer, but I can tell you that we are a non-profit credit counselling agency. We're the largest in the country. We're helping Canadians coast to coast to coast, and we've been doing it for almost 20 years.

I'm not here to point fingers. Really, I want to look forward to what we can do or what this committee can do, and what they can enforce—

[The Vice-Chair (Jasraj Hallan), Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Thank you, Mr. Schwartz.

That concludes this round.

Next we have Mr. Garon for six minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today. It's a pleasure to listen to them.

I'll start with you, Mr. Amiot. First of all, I would like to say that I am pleased that you accepted the invitation to testify before the committee. I often listen to you on Francis Gosselin's podcast. I'm not trying to advertise for anyone, but I think you're an excellent popularizer. When it comes to financial literacy, I think we need people who appear in the media and take the time to explain things. I think that it's a key role, from a collective and social point of view, and you do it very well. I congratulate you on that.

I'll go back to the role you play for insolvency, not necessarily bankruptcy. In your role, you have to help people go bankrupt, which may be the ultimate solution. You can also get people out of insolvency without them declaring bankruptcy. You meet people who are on the brink and who are trying to find solutions. You talked about that. For example, a person may sell their house and end up in a rental unit that often costs more than their mortgage. These are people who make considerable sacrifices, but they are not reflected in the bankruptcy statistics.

I would like to know to what extent personal bankruptcy statistics, used ad nauseam in this committee, may underestimate the extent of the financial hardship of households in Quebec, for example.

[Guyllaume Amiot]

I would like to thank you for your comment. I will accept it. That is very kind of you.

That is an interesting question. Indeed, the role of a trustee is much broader than simply handling bankruptcies or consumer proposals, which are another option under the law. We are also here to support the debtor with budgetary measures, some of which fall outside the scope of the law. As you mentioned, there is, for example, the mortgage. We can refer the person to solutions other than those simply provided for by law.

That said, you are right about the statistics: these are the figures for people who, formally, have insolvency files.

A distinction must also be made. It is important to note that the approximately 140,000 insolvency cases mentioned by the superintendent of bankruptcy do not all represent bankruptcies. In fact, 78% of these cases are consumer proposals. These are agreements reached with creditors, based on the value of the assets and the individual's ability to repay. This legally binding agreement specifically allows debts to be settled without going through bankruptcy and the loss of assets that could result from it.

In my view, this point should be highlighted in the statistics. There are also all the other solutions.

We are also seeing that people are waiting longer and longer before resorting to the ultimate solution, whether that be a consumer proposal or bankruptcy. People do, yes, get into debt. They use several credit cards, sometimes two or three, as we mentioned earlier, because they hope the situation will stabilize, but that does not always happen.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you very much. That clarifies things a great deal.

I'd like to return to a question I put to the witnesses during my first round of questions. I get the impression that people, particularly young people, are becoming increasingly interested in financial matters and that financial literacy is improving. We've talked specifically about Liberté 45. There really has been a shift towards financial literacy among young people.

You know, as MPs, we have no choice but to look at social media, including TikTok and Facebook. I get the impression that people have never been subjected to so much misinformation, to fake financial advisers, to people claiming it's easy to get into property, to fake investment advisers. It is becoming increasingly difficult today for people to distinguish fact from fiction, especially as many of these influencers have no certification or training to do what they do.

Do you see people in your offices who have been exposed to this kind of influence and these influencers, and who, because they were vulnerable, may have made a series of bad decisions?

[Guyllaume Amiot]

You are absolutely right. It's something we're seeing more and more. In fact, it is not uncommon for people to seek information on various web platforms or even to turn to artificial intelligence, which is sometimes contaminated, if I may use that expression, by false or misleading information that may be found on other platforms.

However, the office of the superintendent of bankruptcy has measures in place to ensure, precisely, that those offering advice on debt are accredited, as far as possible, and that there are no rogue advisers enriching themselves at the expense of consumers by giving them advice that is detrimental to them.

That said, could it do more? Yes, we can always do more, but it is important to keep this situation under control and to continue efforts to curb misinformation. Promoting the profession of trustee is therefore important, because we are, in fact, the first point of contact for these people. We are regulated by a licence and a code of ethics, and we ensure that the information received by consumers is accurate.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

On social media, which is a major source of information today, do you think we should in some way require people who present themselves as financial advisers to disclose their qualifications, for example? Should this be more formally regulated, whether by the provinces or the federal government, but primarily by the Autorité des marchés financiers in Quebec, for example?

[The Vice-Chair (Jasraj Hallan), Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Give a short answer, please.

[Guyllaume Amiot]

That’s very interesting. I’m not sure about the legal feasibility of all this, but it would indeed be very interesting to introduce a requirement to disclose one’s capabilities.