Evidence of meeting #40 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was electricity.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Mueller  President and Chief Executive Officer, Aerospace Industries Association of Canada
Tranberg  President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Cattle Feeders' Association
Vander Heyden  Chair, Board of Directors, Alberta Cattle Feeders' Association
Loomis  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Institute of Steel Construction
Dunn  Executive Director, Helium Developers Association of Canada
Dubey  Chief Executive Officer, CVW Sustainable Royalties Inc
Clark  Vice-President, New Economy Canada
Moffatt  Chief Development Officer, StormFisher Hydrogen
Kabbara  Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator
Goddard  Chair, Policy Committee, Canadian Craft Brewers Association
Silès  Chief Executive Officer, Conseil québécois du commerce de détail
Tierney  First Vice-President, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Ross  General Manager, Union des producteurs agricoles

Moe Kabbara Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Moe Kabbara. I'm the CEO of The Transition Accelerator. We are an independent organization that is focused on positioning Canada competitively within the energy transition. We work with industry, provinces, utilities, the financial community and labour unions.

I want to start today by talking about the electricity strategy, the size of the challenges it presents and what can be done about it, specifically from the vantage point of the federal government and its jurisdiction.

For decades, Canada has invested about 0.7% of its GDP in the electricity system. For a decade, that was enough because demand was flat, but that era is over. To electrify how Canadians drive, how we heat buildings and how industry runs, we need to double that investment to about 1.7% of GDP. That is an incremental $30 billion a year, every year, for the next couple of decades.

This is a nation-building project. The major generation and transmission distributions are going to take the better part of a decade to plan, permit and build. We're going to take the next couple of decades to deliver on the ambition of that strategy.

I'm going to talk about three things today.

First, I'll talk about proportionality. The federal government's flagship tool right now for clean electricity is the clean electricity investment tax credit. Jason just mentioned it. It's committed about $25 billion through to 2034. As mentioned, the build-out of the grid is going to be over $1 trillion over the next couple of decades. We've analyzed that, and it's about $3 billion a year if we take the investment tax credit against the incremental need for $30 billion. The question we should be asking is whether we have the right level of support, given the cost, the gap and the ambition.

We can go back to the idea that this is in provincial jurisdiction: What's the role of the federal government? The reality is that every dollar that goes into the grid is ultimately paid by one of two people or entities. We have the taxpayer and the ratepayer. Historically, it's been the ratepayer. Utilities borrow money, build and recover the costs through the monthly bills of the ratepayers. The idea of loading a near doubling of investment entirely onto the rates means that bills are going to go up at exactly the moment we're asking households and businesses to spend money to electrify and buy electrical equipment—buying an EV or a heat pump—because it's going to save them money. The rising bills don't just strain affordability; they can actually kill the very adoption and market transformation we're trying to get to with the electricity strategy.

The question, then, is what federal levers can be used. Ottawa should not and cannot fund the whole build. Most of the grid sits on provincial balance sheets, so what can be done? One thing is sending a durable signal by extending the clean electricity ITC beyond 2034 and expanding it beyond the current amount so that utilities are actually able to take this into their planning processes to be able to meet the ambition of the electricity strategy.

A second thing goes straight to the affordability question. The Prime Minister mentioned leveraging our AAA credit rating as an asset to help fund this strategy in the build-out. We can look at provincial utilities. Their debt is not equal. New Brunswick currently sits at about a 97% debt-to-equity ratio, and that results in a high cost of capital, which results in higher bills. Ultimately, whether it's loan guarantees, concessional financing or the restructuring of legacy utility debt, this is one lever that can be within federal jurisdiction, and it is a clean way to basically help shift the burden off of the rate bearers—Canadians—and help bring bills down for them.

Lastly, I'm going to talk about end-use electrification. Ultimately, we're trying to make sure we have the electricity, but we're also trying to electrify our economy. There are things like the iZEV consumer rebate. We've seen what happens when it runs out of money abruptly and is then paused. When we're thinking about other types of end-use electrification incentives, I really encourage a dynamic similar to what was announced last year on the iZEV, whereby we have a bit more of a scheduled ramp-down. The ZEVIP—the zero emission vehicle infrastructure program for infrastructure—runs out of money next year. There's no clear signal on whether that's going to be recapitalized.

It's really about trying to send clear signals on the end-use electrification side in terms of the role the federal government is going to play fiscally in order to support the long-term build-out of infrastructure, eco-electrification, heat pump adoption and industrial electrification.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

That's great. Thank you very much, Mr. Kabbara.

Mr. Généreux, you have the floor for six minutes.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for joining us.

Mr. Dubey, Mr. Clark, Mr. Moffatt and Mr. Kabbara, based on what you've just said, the government has good intentions, but it hasn't taken the necessary steps to quickly move forward and implement all these good intentions.

What's the most important element in each of your strategies or in government strategies?

What is the burden?

For each of you, what's the most frustrating element that can stand in the way of your overall ambitions?

Mr. Dubey, you can start.

5:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, CVW Sustainable Royalties Inc

Akshay Dubey

From our perspective, our technology would fit very much within the definition of what the government is looking to do. It provides access to critical minerals, it provides access to hydrocarbons and it reduces emissions. However, when you look at the major pieces of the investment tax credit policy that's been put forward, there isn't a single incentive that fits our technology, and that's because our technology fits between a few different verticals.

It's about taking, as you said, good intentions and a target for the federal government and implementing them in some processes and regulations that actually get the results we're looking for. Specifically for us, those would include something like the clean-tech manufacturing ITC due to the benefits we provide that are consistent with the goals of that policy.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC

Mr. Clark, go ahead.

5:25 p.m.

Vice-President, New Economy Canada

Jason Clark

What we've seen, for example, is the government investing in the CRA in the recent spring economic update, which is really important. We've seen challenges for project proponents seeking to utilize the ITCs, wherein there are significant requirements around project criteria and the accounting. We've seen some delays at the CRA that the government has moved to try to address. It's unclear at this moment the extent to which that will happen.

We think there's further opportunity to simplify the ITCs that will match the ambition the government has set for their uptake.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC

Mr. Moffatt, what do you think?

5:25 p.m.

Chief Development Officer, StormFisher Hydrogen

Brandon Moffatt

Thank you very much for the question.

Originally, when the policy on the clean hydrogen ITC was developed, it was focused on a narrow set of parameters, and there was a worry the industry was going to explode and not fit within the budget. That has not been the case. What you're seeing is a request to reset the conversation, as the industry has come back down, to core projects.

We've engaged, both at the political level and with senior staff, to say the industry is adjusting. We're trying to move more quickly around those types of changes to allow projects to be unlocked and create the jobs I mentioned earlier.

The other thing is around ECCC and the carbon intensity of the grids. We're actually treating our grid 10 times worse than the Europeans treat their grid. What we're trying to do is unlock value here at home through the carbon intensity of our grids. The Quebec grid, as a whole, is 99.6% renewable. Why in the world would that be treated as a dirty grid, from our perspective?

We see the ITC and the treatment of the carbon intensity of the grids as being critically important.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Kabbara, go ahead.

5:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Moe Kabbara

I'm not here to talk about this, per se, but I would echo the comments on the hydrogen ITC, because it doesn't make any sense to try to.... I've worked a lot on that, and it doesn't really make any sense that we're treating Quebec's grid, which is not one of the best grids we know the world has...and not being awarded the full credit.

In terms of the focus now for us and what I think is needed, what is the fiscal dimension of the electricity strategy that was announced about 11 days ago? The scale here is hundreds of billions of dollars, which we're going to be spending over the next couple of decades. It's $1 trillion plus.

The ITCs were a good tool. The expansion of the ITCs at the intraprovincial transmission.... Before that, the ITCs included transmission between provinces. Now the strategy has signalled that it's going to expand that to within a province, which we know is the majority of the transmission that's going to get built. I think that was a positive.

We would have also liked to see ITCs at the distribution level. We know we're going to have transformers, poles and wires. All of these things and transmission are going to be at least half of that $1 trillion, but we don't currently have a mechanism to support that.

It really comes back to what role the federal government should play in making sure that we're managing rates for Canadians. As I said, I'm not suggesting that this is wholly within the responsibility of the federal government. A lot of it is provincial. The strategy set a new level of ambition, and we still have only the investment tax credits based on the previous, future-looking approach we had.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC

About 10 years ago, the Trudeau government had an ambition, which was to plant trees. In the end, those trees were never planted. What's worse, the current government decided to throw them in the garbage.

When you plan development strategies, such as the one we just announced for electricity, you also have to put in place the necessary conditions for them to be carried out. Honestly, I don't get the impression the conditions are there at the moment, because there's still too much regulation. Also, as you just said, in Canada, the current electrical energy—

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Mr. Généreux. Your time's up.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC

That's not fair.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Mr. Lavoie, you have the floor for six minutes.

Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for joining us. I took the time to read a bit about what you do and I listened to your opening remarks. It's very interesting.

My first question is for you, Mr. Clark and Mr. Kabbara. It came to me while listening to you earlier. I'll draw a link and ask for your opinion.

Three years ago, when I chaired the Chambre de commerce et d'industrie de Québec, there was a lot of talk about investment and the environment, and people were mixing them up and pitting one against the other. We decided at the time to conduct a survey using the credible Leger firm. The margin of error was less than 4%, so it was a very credible survey. I'd like to take advantage of your appearance here to get your opinion on the survey question, which was: In the context of economic development, what should be prioritized in decision-making: the environment, the economy, or both equally?

Some were surprised by the results: 66% said both should have equal weight in decision-making, only 17% said the environment should be a priority, and only 17% said the economy should be a priority. This survey was conducted in a city. Three years later, I still wonder whether it's realistic and achievable across the country. Do you think so?

Either one of you can go first.

5:30 p.m.

Vice-President, New Economy Canada

Jason Clark

That's one of the most exciting things about the national electricity strategy, with the potential and the level of ambition put forward within it. It's the idea that not only do we have the potential to double our grid, but we are putting some of the cleanest electricity in the world at the centre of our economic growth and potential. Electrifying across the economy has all of the benefits I talked about. It's fundamentally a growth strategy and a competitiveness strategy, and it has the benefit of being cleaner.

However, the opportunity is really about economic growth and the future of the country. There's huge potential. The government signalled, obviously, that we likely have some time in which to consult. The provinces and territories are fundamentally critical, but we have a moment here. We have that opportunity.

I would posit that the potential for efficiency and the productivity growth we've all been searching for across the country could be embodied within what we see in the national electricity strategy.

I'll pass it to Moe.

May 26th, 2026 / 5:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Moe Kabbara

I'll start by saying that in 1988, James Hansen presented to the U.S. Senate that the world was warming. That was almost 40 years ago.

Photovoltaic solar was invented in the fifties and was deployed in satellites in outer space and in little hand calculators. The drive to reduce emissions and to deal with climate change gave rise to R and D in the commercialization of these technologies, but very quickly we've seen what happens when you have learning curves and you deploy manufacturing at scale and those costs drop down. We have costs that are 95% cheaper on batteries and solar.

I would say the climate was really the initial catalyst. The economics made it a better option in a lot of cases, and now the geopolitics are making it strategic. Those are the geopolitics we're seeing with the oil shock and how that's driving things. Look up what's going on in Korea. The other thing is what's happening with China dominating that industry.

When we talk about the competitiveness imperative for Canada, that's what we mean. Right now, I don't think, as you were saying, there really is a choice between the environment and economic development. I would agree with the 50% of people who voted that those things should go hand in hand, but because of the drivers and the idea that technologies have been developed that are superior from a cost-performance perspective and can secure sovereignty for countries in terms of energy security and not having to rely on inputs....

What I would say there is that I totally agree that this is an imperative for us and that electrification is currently driven by economics and sovereignty, which is why it's important for Canada to position itself. We don't want to spend $1 trillion importing stuff from the rest of the world.

That's why I was really encouraged to see in the electricity strategy an emphasis on supply chain development so that we are making components here at home. We have companies like Hammond Power in Guelph, which increased their transformer exports by 200% and some over the last two to three years, because that's what the world needs to power things like data centres, electric vehicles and industrial electrification.

I would say that not only is it okay or possible to do both; I think we have to.

Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I see my time's running out. I have about 15 seconds left. Thank you for that.

Thank you, Mr. Clark.

It reassures me that economic development and the environment are not being pitted against each other and that we can consider both of them.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Mr. Lavoie.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor for six minutes.

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Once again, I thank all the witnesses for joining us, as well as for the briefs they've submitted or are about to submit. They're always an interesting read.

Mr. Kabbara, I'll start with you, since you're interested in the transition, but also in the technological and industrial means to get there.

Do you think Canada is currently on track to meet its interim net-zero target?

5:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Moe Kabbara

I think the interpreter said “2026”, so on that I would say definitely not, but I'm assuming your question is for 2050—

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

You're spoiling the element of surprise. I have more questions. You're getting ahead of me and I don't like it. I'm kidding.

Are we going to meet the Paris Agreement target by 2030?

5:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Moe Kabbara

I think this is a challenge that the world is facing. Net zero and emissions reductions were never easy.

We hold the view—and this is something you can look at—of what's called the pragmatic climate reset. The reality was that the world committed to the Paris Agreement, but there was no viable pathway to get to the 2030 target, which was a 45% reduction globally in emissions relative to 2005.

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Are we on track to meet our 2035 targets?

5:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Moe Kabbara

Right now, we're not on track, and I would argue—and we've been arguing—that we were never on track and no other country is on track.