Finance Committee on June 2nd, 2026

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

We now go to Mr. Lefebvre for five minutes.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I always disclose when I have a conflict of interest or know a witness. Ms. Melançon is smiling. I had the privilege of being elected to the National Assembly of Quebec in a by-election on December 8, 2016. Ms. Melançon was elected to the National Assembly at the same time in another by-election. We sat in the Quebec legislature for a number of years, learning the ropes together. As newbies to the National Assembly of Quebec, we obviously became fast friends, so I'm going to call her Isabelle, if that's okay.

My first questions are for you, Isabelle. You said that Quebec is ready to build and that CMHC is an important partner, but that it makes changes on short notice, two days, in fact. What do they say when you tell them you can't work like that?

[Isabelle Melançon]

Thank you for your question. I'm delighted to see you again.

The first thing they say, of course, is that CMHC is facing a higher level of risk, particularly in terms of insurance premiums. They told us that CMHC insures 95% of insured projects. In 2014‑15, that number was less than 10%, so there's clearly a bottleneck when it comes to insurance premiums. I think the organization has hit somewhat of a ceiling. Nonetheless, it did recognize that two days' notice isn't appropriate.

At the Institut de développement urbain du Québec, we hosted a big meeting, bringing together representatives from the Canada Infrastructure Bank, the Canada Lands Company, Build Canada Homes and CMHC in the same forum for the first time. We realized that they tend to work in silos, but I think they need to do a better job of coordinating their efforts. Although they don't provide the same products, people need to be able to navigate them better. They also need to improve the products they offer for future renters and property owners.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

You brought up the water infrastructure deficit municipalities are facing, specifically water and waste water infrastructure. As we know, the systems have hit a wall. It's the chicken-and-egg dilemma. If you don't have the infrastructure to build, you can't build, and if you don't have the infrastructure, you can't build. Municipalities need $42.5 billion to maintain their water infrastructure assets.

Are there things you'd like us to work on? In your view, how can we help with the infrastructure maintenance deficit municipalities are facing?

[Isabelle Melançon]

Clearly, municipalities will never be able to foot the entire bill on their own.

In fact, funding was announced just today for infrastructure projects in Quebec. We're talking about a budget of $2.7 billion. You will understand that we're a long way from 10% of what could be funded.

As long as we're unable to develop due to infrastructure issues, we can't build and we can't solve the housing crisis. That's why I often say we need all types of housing. Some of our members some provide non-market housing, some provide student housing and some provide private housing. We know that we need all types of housing right now, and more affordable housing.

To achieve affordability, we have to stop saying that we're going to impose a small additional development fee on developers who pay it. That's because, at the end of the day, it's not the developer who will pay—it's the future tenant and the future homeowner.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Isabelle, as you know, we're also discussing the labour issue in Quebec. Do contractors tell you about the foreign worker programs within their companies for construction projects? Do they say that, if they no longer have temporary foreign workers, they may be forced to turn down even development contracts?

[Isabelle Melançon]

Just yesterday, in fact, I was sitting on a committee, and our developers told us that everything currently referred to as “immigration” is becoming important. It's important because they no longer have enough people to pay the bills, let's put it that way.

We have a demographic problem in Quebec, but we also have a labour problem, of course, and we're going to have to address it fairly quickly. There was a time when the floodgates were wide open. We believe they were closed too quickly, and we think immigration will have a major role to play going forward.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

This would be what we, for our part, call economic immigration, which contributes specifically to the development of our regions—precisely where the unemployment rate is lowest. We're talking about an unemployment rate of 5.5% or lower.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Lefebvre. That concludes your time.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

We're going to continue now with Mr. Leitão for five minutes.

[Carlos Leitão, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I will be sharing my time with my colleague, Mr. Sawatzky.

Madam Chair and witnesses, thank you for participating in this exercise.

Good afternoon, Ms. Melançon. It's nice to see you again as well. We've known each other for quite some time—make that quite a long time.

You mentioned the issue of water infrastructure. Of course, this is a municipal issue but the federal government also has a role to play. There was an announcement today, and that's very good news. As you mentioned earlier, there's also the Canada Infrastructure Bank, or CIB, which has recently become able to fund this type of infrastructure as well.

Based on your experience with the people you represent, I'd like to know whether projects with the CIB are moving forward. Is the process a little faster? Could it move even faster? I'd like your opinion on that.

[Isabelle Melançon]

Of course, it's a pleasure to see you again as well.

As I mentioned earlier, we held a big conference that included representatives from the CIB, the Canada Lands Company, Build Canada Homes and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

I would say that the CIB is like a hidden gem that people haven't quite discovered yet, and I think we need to raise awareness of the people at the CIB. In fact, the CIB team is right here in the same building where I am today, at Place du Canada in Montreal, and we agreed that we should collaborate more effectively—I'll put it that way—because there was a lack of awareness about what they're capable of doing.

The CIB and the Canada Lands Company will also be working together more closely. That's why I was saying earlier that we need to break down these silos quickly so that everyone can work together to raise awareness of the work they can do and to identify exactly where they can accelerate projects that really need it.

As you know, in Montreal, the mayor announced that we had to reduce water capacity because there are fears that the infrastructure could fail overnight. We therefore really need the CIB for this kind of infrastructure investment.

[Carlos Leitão, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I can tell you that the people at the CIB are truly agile. We recently announced a rather innovative project with the City of Laval.

[Isabelle Melançon]

Yes.

[Carlos Leitão, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

So the CIB is a good model.

I don't know if you've been following our work or not, but earlier today, we heard from Luc Godbout, who said, among other things, that one of the ways to address the housing crisis might be to convert buildings. Is that something that's being considered, especially with the group you represent, or is it a topic that's coming up a little less these days? I know it's still going fairly well in Calgary, but in Montreal and Toronto, I don't think it's a huge success.

Can you tell us about that?

[Isabelle Melançon]

People often think that, given the housing crisis, we should look to office buildings to convert them into apartments. Unfortunately, these buildings are not designed for that. It's hard to create a windowless room in the middle of a building. You understand that, for safety reasons, this is becoming increasingly complex. What it takes to successfully convert office buildings into rental buildings is a significant investment. In fact, the City of Calgary paid a very high price to carry out such conversions.

We're not at that stage yet in Montreal. There have been a few attempts, but I would suggest to you that this is not how we're going to solve the housing crisis.

[Carlos Leitão, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Melançon.

I will now turn the floor over to my colleague Mr. Sawatzky.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

There are about 40 seconds left.

[Jake Sawatzky, Liberal, New Westminster—Burnaby—Maillardville, BC]

That sounds good. Thank you very much. It still works.

This question is for Mr. Finkbiner.

Picking up on MP Church's remarks, could you speak to quantifying the savings to the health care system, the justice system and social services through providing stable housing?

[Chris Finkbiner]

Directly through the health system, one thing we see is about a 50% reduction in ED visits within the first year of folks moving into supportive housing. That's a 50% decrease in the use of emergency departments. That is a direct and major cost implication—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Finkbiner. I'm going to have to end it there.

Thank you, Mr. Sawatzky.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

We're going to finish this hour with two and a half minutes for Mr. Garon.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to continue with you, Ms. Melançon, even though, apparently, I'm the only one on this committee who doesn't know you personally. We'll fix that one day.

When Mr. Godbout spoke earlier today, I think he was referring to converting private housing into non-market housing, but not necessarily to rental rates. Obviously, this will be clarified in the brief, but I really think it was a conversion from one residential building to another.

Mr. Leitão's question, which concerns vacancy and occupancy rates in downtown buildings in light of remote work, does raise a rather interesting point. People are resisting remote work, often citing valid reasons. This creates significant challenges for the economy of our downtown areas, both in terms of investment and the renovation of these buildings.

Now that we've established that converting office buildings in downtown Montreal or Toronto into housing is often not a viable solution, what do we do with our downtown areas?