Evidence of meeting #45 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was subamendment.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Yes, you're admitting there's a recession.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Wow, you're admitting there's a recession. Congratulations.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karina Gould
Thank you, Mr. Leitão.
Mr. Ho, I would just—
Is it on the same point of order, Mr. Lawrence? Please, go ahead.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON
One of the important things we've talked about is that there are a series of macroeconomic issues that could impede or impact the financial sustainability of the CPP. The member, being a former minister of finance in Quebec, would understand that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karina Gould
Thank you, Mr. Lawrence.
This is entering into debate.
Mr. Ho, if....
There's another point of order.
Mr. Lavoie, go ahead.
Liberal
Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I agree with my colleague Mr. Lawrence. Context is important, but Mr. Ho is repeating what Mr. Lawton already said. Members were told that they were being repetitive, but the same can be said of our colleagues. Is it repetition if the comment was already made?
I'm asking, because everything the member just said Mr. Lawton said previously.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karina Gould
Thank you, Mr. Lavoie.
On the same point of order, we have Ms. Goodridge.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Madam Chair, what Mr. Lavoie said isn't a point of order, because—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karina Gould
Thank you very much, Ms. Goodrich.
Mr. Ho, you continue to have the floor. I would like to remind you to continue with relevance to the subamendment that is on the floor. You can repeat something someone else has said, but please don't repeat it yourself again and again.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karina Gould
I think people would like to hear something new, after closing in on 11 hours of committee testimony at this moment.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
There's a special point.... It's a very important bill.
Conservative
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Those points of order lasted several minutes already. I was interrupted by them.
I want to link it back to why recession matters. Recession means negative GDP growth. It usually means fewer jobs. It's workers who have those jobs who pay into the CPP. It's a generation now graduating into a made-by-Liberal, made-in-Ottawa recession. It's very important that we study these intergenerational effects or at least have some data on the intergenerational effects of the CPP and, of course, the sustainability of the CPP as it pays out those pension obligations, because it's dependent on the growth of those assets, dependent on the contributions of current generations.
This is all about the different generations. We have gen X, we have gen Y, we have gen Z. I have the pleasure of being gen Y, although some people, when they first look at me, may say I'm in gen Z. I digress.
It's not an unreasonable request. This is a bare minimum that we expect parliamentarians to be looking at. This is not an issue that is at the top of everyone's mind, but it's also very important that this will affect almost everyone. Everyone who works for a paycheque will deal with CPP. Even small and medium-sized businesses have to make employer contributions as well, and they have to deal with the CPP. Every Canadian worker who pays into the CPP deserves to know more about the viability of the CPP.
Of course, the assets that CPP invests in traditionally have been a lot of liquid assets—a lot of real estate, infrastructure assets, private equity, venture capital. Of course, most of those returns now no longer have the.... They generally have created better risk-adjusted returns than public equities; therefore, you can generate better returns, hypothetically, than by investing in a public market, like buying a stock index passively—the S&P 500 or the TSX 60. Those assumptions have changed recently. Those alternative asset classes are no longer generating the same level of risk-adjusted return.
When you look at the CPP and its viability for the next generation, if it's still continuing to use that sort of investment mandate.... That has been a recipe for success for many decades. The next generation, the youngest generation, which might not withdraw from the CPP until 40 or 50 years from now, needs to know that perhaps there are assets that are maybe not generating the same sort of risk-adjusted return as those of previous generations.
What has worked—the contribution rates that have worked before to get the same withdrawals—might not be the same, because we're living in a Liberal, low-growth environment. You're not going to expect asset returns to have the same returns as for previous generations. It's very important that we study the intergenerational impacts when we're in a Liberal, low-growth—
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Yes, we just heard “recession”. That's breaking news right there.
It's a reasonable request. I don't see why we would oppose this. This amendment is specific, but not so prescriptive that, if we get the minister or the CPP to produce the information and present it in a way that works for them, also producing more information that contributes....
There are lots of side conversations happening right now.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
There are several parties talking, actually. There are several conversations.
Liberal
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
It's about predictability.
To many people, the CPP might not be enough. They look at their OAS and, if applicable, GIS. If they get their CPP, that might not be enough to sustain their lifestyle.
We know, for example, that for the younger generation now, home ownership is lower than before. A lot of the time people expect that when they retire and their mortgage is paid off.... They still have to pay rent, utilities and property taxes, but they don't have to worry about mortgage payments after they retire, because their 25- or 30-year mortgage has been fully paid off.
That's no longer the case for many people now, because they may be renters for life. People may be renters when they're 30 or 35 years old, but now they may be renters when they're 65 or 70 years old, even though they've worked their whole lives.
Their CPP and OAS might not be able to cover rent, which continues to increase. We've seen rents double in the last 11 years under this Liberal government, because of their lacklustre housing and out-of-control immigration policies.
It's about knowing that the CPP is going to be paying the amounts for people to be able to afford to live. Now you have to add rent payments after you retire, which again, many homeowners might not have to deal with—
Liberal
Kent MacDonald Liberal Cardigan, PE
Madam Chair, I have a point of order.
This entire thesis by Mr. Ho has nothing to do with the subamendment that we're debating here today.
I would ask that you rein him back in terms of speaking to the subamendment and not this thesis that he's given us, although we well appreciate receiving it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karina Gould
Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.
Mr. Ho, this is another reminder for relevance to the subamendment. Please stick to the topic at hand.
Thank you.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Thank you for the reminder from the member.
I mean, we're talking about, “estimated lifetime contributions, estimated lifetime benefits and the impact of the reduction in contribution rates beginning in 2027.”
These might be cents today, but they could be dollars later on.
I have a lot of other points I could make, but I think I've made the big ones on this subamendment. I'm going to cede the floor, and maybe we can move to a vote on this important subamendment.
Maybe we'll get more Liberal members on this committee to admit that we're in a Liberal recession.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karina Gould
Thank you, Mr. Ho.
Shall subamendment 4 to CPC-13 pass?
(Subamendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 4)
