Finance Committee on June 8th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Go ahead, Mr. Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

I move that Bill C-30, in clause 3, be amended by adding after line 14 on page 2 the following:

(2) Without delay after the day on which this section comes into force and every year after that, the Minister of National Revenue in collaboration with the Minister of Finance must publish a report in respect of the previous year on the number of qualifying business transfers that have resulted in a capital gains deduction.

This is a reporting requirement that we are adding to ensure transparency and accountability. Canadians want to know the efficacy of the policies that are brought about, and we need to judge the success or non-success of measures. Small businesses and local jobs are extremely important. We need to know that retiring small business owners and employees are being supported, and we need to have accurate data to inform policy-makers, no matter who is in government. That's the rationale for this; it's to ensure that we know what the results of this policy are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, go ahead.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

The government opposes this amendment. It would require that the government report information that is not currently collected for statistical analysis purposes by the CRA. Furthermore, related information on the number of individuals claiming a capital gains deduction for either a qualifying business transfer or a qualifying co-operative conversion will be included in future publications of the report on federal tax expenditures.

This report is customarily tabled in the House of Commons along with the main estimates. It's for similar reasons to the last amendment. It's duplicative and it's not statistical information that the CRA regularly collects. For those two reasons, we're opposed.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Monsieur Lefebvre, go ahead.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

The government is putting measures in place, and it's important to be able to quantify them, to have a dashboard that shows whether or not they're working. We then need to assess them and decide whether to keep them or not. What we are proposing is important. I don't understand why the government doesn't want to support this amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Shall CPC-2 carry?

Mr. Turnbull, you have your hand up.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

That sounded like a question to the government. I gave some rationale as to why we would oppose it. It doesn't seem to merit the....

There is information that's collected and tabled already in the House of Commons that pertains to this. There would be an additional reporting burden put on the CRA for the statistical analysis that's being required here, and we don't think it's necessary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

Mr. Hallan, go ahead.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

The government's making a claim that it's a burden to the CRA. I was wondering if the officials could tell us if it's possible to do this. I don't know how much more work it would take, but could the officials could tell us that? If it's something that could be included, then I think it should be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Mr. Walsh, are you able to answer that question?

[Mark Walsh, Senior Director, Savings and Investment, Department of Finance]

Thank you very much for your question.

My name is Mark Walsh. I am senior director of savings and investment in the personal income tax division of Finance Canada.

With respect to the question in terms of what the CRA is currently capable of obtaining, right now the information that they do obtain or would obtain is in respect of the number of claimants for a qualifying business transfer, but not the number of transfers. That information is not currently obtainable in a way that would be conducive to statistical analysis.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Just to follow up, based on the amendment, would it be possible for the department to do this?

[Mark Walsh]

I don't think it's my position to answer that question.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

It's weird that....

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Walsh. I didn't quite understand the distinction. You said that CRA gathers the number of claimants but not the number of transfers. Is the difference because a claimant could have multiple transfers? Every transfer, I would assume, would result in at least one claimant. If you could clarify, that would be great.

[Mark Walsh]

It's sort of the other way. A qualifying transaction might have multiple claimants. When the claimant reports the information, there might be other claimants making a claim in respect of the same qualifying transaction.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

If you just had the total number of claimants, you perhaps would be overstating the number of transfers because there would be multiple parties for many of the transfers. Is that the worry?

[Mark Walsh]

That's fair, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Shall CPC-2 carry?

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

(Clause 3 agreed to on division)

(On clause 4)

Next, we have clause 4 and CPC-3.

Mr. Hallan, go ahead.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

I move that Bill C-30, in clause 4, be amended by adding after line 26 on page 2 the following:

(2) Without delay after the day on which this section comes into force and every year after that, the Minister of National Revenue in collaboration with the Minister of Finance must publish a report in respect of the previous year on the use of the deduction for qualifying cooperative conversions.”

Once again, this would bring about more clarity, more transparency and of, course, more accountability. At the end of the day, the more data we have, based on this.... This is good for the future.

We're bringing forward most of these amendments because of the fact that the more data we have, the more we know whether something is actually working or not. The government introduces a lot of things, but then doesn't really have tracking measurements to see if they're successful or not. This would help that and determine whether the program is a success or not. That's why we're bringing this one forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Hallan.

Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I'll share that the government's position is to oppose this for exactly the same reasons that I indicated for the previous amendment. The information being asked for here, which would be required if this passes, is not currently being collected for statistical analysis through the CRA. It's also slightly duplicative because some of the information being requested would be in future publications of the report on federal tax expenditures, which is customarily tabled in the House of Commons with the main estimates.

This will be a running theme, by the way, because many of the amendments the Conservatives have proposed seem to want to increase red tape, government operations and reporting requirements, which is the opposite of what they often say. I will say there are quite a number of them that don't seem to merit the added cost. If we were to do a cost-benefit analysis, we don't feel that some of these would garner the benefit that would be required to justify adding additional resources.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

Go ahead, Mr. Lefebvre.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is about transparency, and that's what the public wants right now. That's what Canadians are concerned about right now. They feel there isn't any transparency. The government is just throwing things at us, like the issue I raised in recent weeks.

As far as the data are concerned, the government is saying that the information isn't currently collected, but that is precisely why we are proposing this now. We want a dashboard; we want to know whether this is working or not. How can you assess a program when you don't have any data?

This is essential. That's what you do in the private sector. If you want to know whether your product or service is working, you collect and analyze the data. Then you're able to decide whether to keep doing what you're doing. We should do the same thing on our end. I don't understand why the government keeps refusing to collect the data required to properly assess these measures.