Evidence of meeting #51 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was measure.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

François-Philippe Champagne  Minister of Finance and National Revenue
Lefebvre  Richmond—Arthabaska—des-Sources, CPC
Genest-Grégoire  Assistant Professor, Department of Taxation, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Au  Associate Professor of Finance, As an Individual
Jarvis  Ontario Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Gagnon  Quebec Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Actually, Minister, under your government, Canada is known as a hotbed for foreign interference, so it doesn't reassure any Canadian that you will not notify them when their information is given to a foreign government. I would strongly advise you to look into that and make sure that Canadians are notified when their information is given to foreign actors.

Also, Minister, you've done some creative accounting, as you always do. You've moved accounting into two separate sections. We have the capital and the operating expenses. Obviously, the PBO does not agree with what you're doing. A lot of us don't, and Conservatives have been calling you out on that, because it's up to you to define what you want to put in either one of those columns. There's no real clarity. You're muddying the waters, which we've been calling you out on, and the PBO has called you out on it as well.

How is this not cooking the books?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I disagree with everything you just said, and the PBO disagrees with you entirely. I'll quote exactly—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Actually, she doesn't.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Hold on. You're making allegations. You need to go back to the report of the PBO, which I'll quote—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

You are able to define—

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

I'm sorry. I'm going to ask both of you, based on what we had said, to let the minister respond.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'll quote from the report, Madam Chair, because I think Canadians watching want the facts.

This is what the Parliamentary Budget Officer wrote:

As noted by both the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), clear and well-defined fiscal rules (or anchors) are widely considered a positive fiscal management practice which promote improved fiscal discipline.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

I think you've taken more time than I did when I asked the question.

I have what the PBO said. It says the public information is not enough to independently reproduce your spending classifications because those classifications are in your hands. You get to pick what goes into operating and capital expenses. There's no clarity in this for Canadians whatsoever.

My question for you is this: If the PBO can't classify that.... How do you expect Parliament or even Canadians to do that when your own watchdog is calling you out on it?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

What we've put in place has been applauded, as I said, by the IMF, the OECD—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

No, the IMF called you out on it as well.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

—and I must say the PBO as well, in the sense that it's more transparent—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

The PBO called you out on it. I have the report right here.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

All spending is fully reflected in the budgetary balance, is fully reflected in the federal debt and the public accounts. This is in addition.... It's a complement to what we have been producing, and I would say—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

The PBO also said, Minister, that you're not going to be able to—

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

—it's even best practices. You see that in the United Kingdom, and you see that in Singapore.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

—balance your operating budget, which is a fiscal anchor of yours as well, so the PBO is not on board with you.

I have to move on. Since we're talking about budgets right now, I have to ask you about the Alto budget.

Minister, zero metres of track have been laid for Alto, yet you gave out $3 million of bonuses. Why?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

The Minister of Transport would be best placed to answer these questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Minister, the finances go through your department. You have to sign off to give that money to them. You should be able to answer why you gave $3 million in bonuses to a project. You rewarded a project that has zero metres of track laid. Why?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Sir, as I said, you'll have the opportunity to ask these questions of the Minister of Transport, who's best placed to answer. As you know, I have a screen, and I respect the screen.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Minister, it's you who releases this money.

The PBO also said that you have said it's going to be between $60 billion and $90 billion. The PBO says it'll be $113 billion.

Can you assure Canadians today that this project will not go over $90 billion, yes or no?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

What I can assure Canadians is that the Minister of Transport would be best placed to answer that question.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you very much, Mr. Hallan. This concludes your time.

We are going to continue now with Mr. Leitão for six minutes, please.

Carlos Leitão Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister and Ms. Lavoie. Thank you for joining us to discuss Bill C‑31 a little.

I will start by going back to what was just discussed, which is our desire, in our budget process, to give Canadians a lot more information. The deficit is there; nothing hidden.

Nobody's cooking the books.

What's presented in there is very clear.

However, what we are adding is information on operating expenditures and on what we consider to be capital expenditures. Whether that is according to the Parliamentary Budget Officer or, more specifically, the financial markets, I would remind all members of this committee that Canada still has a AAA credit rating. If the government was manipulating the financial documents, I suspect Canada would have lost that credit rating a long time ago.

Let's get back to Bill C‑31.

This is a fairly lengthy bill; it includes a lot of things. As you said early on, Minister, it includes affordability measures. I think that's an important component of this bill.

Furthermore, as you also said, today, October 5, is the day millions of Canadians will be receiving the Canada groceries and essentials benefit in their bank accounts.

Could you tell us a little more about the affordability measures in the budget and, more importantly, why they are important in the current context?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

First, I want to thank my colleague, an economist and former Quebec finance minister with a lot of experience.

As you said, the new framework we presented is for moving towards transparency, to show Canadians the difference between operating expenditures and capital expenditures. People at home understand that very well. Thank you for clarifying that.

It is true that the International Monetary Fund and the OECD have commended Canada's work. Others did it as well, including England and Singapore. Other countries have chosen to follow our lead and are looking at the Canadian model, which is seen as a model that brings more transparency. As you said, the government is not cooking the books. The public accounts are the public accounts; the deficit is the deficit. All we are doing is making things clearer to allow for more transparency and consistency and help people fully understand where their money is going.

I think you are right to highlight this. Once she received all the information forwarded to her, the Parliamentary Budget Officer understood the distinctions very well. People watching at home want to understand what capital investment is. People understand that when we invest in infrastructure, bridges, roads or the renovation of health infrastructure, for example, it is very different from regular fiscal transactions.

I think being transparent is the right thing to do. That is exactly what people want. That is why I'm surprised to hear my Conservative colleagues oppose more transparency. We are giving more information, offering more transparency, and they're against it. It is kind of weird. I think people want a transparent government that sheds light on government investments and expenditures.

You are right to say that affordability is the number one challenge facing Canadians. There is what I often call the affordability pyramid. First, there is the cost of housing, meaning that people must be able to find affordable and safe housing. Second, there is the cost of food. Third, there is the cost of gas. I think if you look at a family budget, those are the three items that people are concerned about at the end of the week or at the end of the month.

We have taken action on all three.

First, you know as well as I do, Mr. Leitão, that in budget 2025, the government made generational investments in housing to provide more units, so that people can more easily find a place to live. It has had a positive impact. Just look at the cost of rent in major Canadian cities, for example, as well as the price of houses. There is a market adjustment. I think it's good for households.

Second, with regard to the Canada groceries and essentials benefit, as you said, nearly 12 million people will receive a payment today. That is excellent news. That is exactly what we need to do.

Third, and we will talk about it later, there is Bill C‑38, which proposes to extend the federal excise tax suspension on gasoline. That's more good news. That is equivalent to $0.10 on gas and $0.04 on diesel.

These are measures that help households and all sectors of the economy. Obviously, reducing the gas tax helps the economy in general, whether in agriculture or transportation, or when you use your vehicle to go to the office.

You are right about the series of measures the government put in place. I was looking at last spring's economic statement. Compared to other countries, Mr. Leitão, the government has adopted a series of important measures, whether it is the national school food program, the allocation—

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Minister. That concludes the member's speaking time.