Fisheries Committee on Nov. 6th, 2006

[John Kearley]

May I speak on that?

If you look at the EI Act, the term they use is a “catch”: as long as their product is a catch, then it's EI insurable. But seals are excluded from the term “catch”, so sealing income is not insurable.

However, if a skipper, as you said, creates what's termed an employee-employer relationship, then it can be or may be insurable. However, the crew members cannot take any risk; they have to be employees. He's paying them a salary, I suppose, as opposed to there being a joint venture such as would be the case in other fisheries. It's my understanding--and I'm not involved with other species--that with crab, for instance, in order for that to be insurable, the crew members must take part in the venture. They must share in the expenses of the trip, and then they share in the profits from the trip, and then that becomes insurable. The sealing industry, because it doesn't produce a catch, comes under a different regulation.

I was really surprised when somebody said that 50% is insurable and 50% not insurable. That was a new one for me. If the skipper on a vessel creates what's considered an employee-employer relationship with his crew members, then it can be insurable.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

The benefit, are you saying, is 50%?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I am in a very generous mood today, and since this is the riding you represent, we're going to allow you ten seconds to ask another question.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I appreciate it.

Are you saying 50% are insurable and 50% are not, because 50% are in an employee-employer relationship?

[Jean Richard Joncas]

At EI they told me that it's because of the expense. A catch of crab is 25% non-insurable because the expenses are low. In the seal hunt, the expenses are so high that they consider 50% of their trip to be expense and the other 50% to be work.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Mr. Chair, under the EI regulations, there are two sets of EI: there's employer-employee EI--regular EI--and there's fishermen's EI. Fishermen's EI is structured towards self-employed fishermen. If, for example, Rene Genge were to hire somebody to go sealing with him, his employee would be eligible for EI while Rene collected revenue from his sale of seals. A fisherman applying for fishermen's EI benefits would not. However, what I don't fathom at all is that an Irish moss fisherman in P.E.I. can actually collect fishermen's EI benefits from harvesting and selling plants--seaweed--but you can't from selling a seal because it's a mammal and not a fish. This is something I think this committee should.... It's crazy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you for that, Mr. Byrne.

Now we're going to Monsieur Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to come back to a basic issue. We have to face this campaign of disinformation and demagogy that is going on in Europe. We can look in detail at how the Department of Fisheries and Oceans manages the seal hunt. However, I have to tell you that we're already 30 years late when one thinks of the damage caused in Europe. Furthermore, the seal hunt is becoming more and more of and issue in Europe. We have a lot of catching up to do.

I would like you to tell me what you've tried to do to counter this campaign in Europe, as an industry and as a hunter. Have you tried to do something?

I may add a brief comment to this: your Premier, Mr. Danny Williams, doesn't help you when he states publicly that the use of the hakapik should be prohibited. I have the feeling that he's a loose cannon. I don't know him personally but he's not helping at all when he makes such statements.

I would like you to tell us how we can counter that type of campaign. I understand that there may be some management issues but the major problem you have at this time is the propaganda campaign going on in Europe. If we don't face that quickly with significant resources, the seal hunt might disappear completely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Do you have a comment, gentlemen?

[John Kearley]

I shouldn't jump on the thing, because I know a couple of the people who are presenting tomorrow in Gander, and I think you'll get good information from these people. I sit on the sealing committee of the Fur Institute of Canada, and these people.... When I look at your list for tomorrow, Jim Winter, who is a person who is also on this committee, will be at your meeting tomorrow in Gander. So I think you'll get better information on what our committee thinks should be done.

To expect individuals and companies to fight these groups.... There are huge, huge sums of money. These people are professional PR people. As a company or as individual sealers, we do not have the money to run a campaign against these people. You'd need millions of dollars, and these people have hundreds of millions of dollars that they collect from people throughout the world.

So I think it's rather difficult--not difficult, it's impossible--for the industry itself to stand up against these people. I think we certainly need the support of the Government of Canada to be able to help with the statements and that.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Over the past 30 years, did any seal hunters go to Europe to meet with parliamentarians or various groups? Has there been this type of action in the past?

[John Kearley]

It's my understanding that certainly there were. Back in the early eighties there were a number of sealers, as well as aboriginal people, who travelled to Europe and met with the European parliamentarians and things like that. I think it was to no avail.

If I recall, back in the days when Frank Moores was Premier of Newfoundland, he and Morrissey Johnson had a thing on the go where a bunch of them got together and they travelled to Europe to try to counteract the whitecoat ban at that time, I guess. And really, you know, they ended up probably doing more damage than they did good, because they were not professionals; they were not media people, I suppose, in one way of speaking.

These protest people use the media free of charge. They are professional media people.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I don't necessarily agree with you. In fact, the recent efforts of some of us, like Mr. Simms and myself, who went to Paris... I was there in May and I went back in June. In May, the Council of Europe was looking at a recommendation aimed at banning seal products from Canada. We had the opportunity to meet with those people. I also met with them when they came here in Quebec. Some accepted it to go to the Magdalen Islands to meet with some hunters. I'm not saying that it's because of our action but that recommendation that was intended to ban seal products was withdrawn and we were left with a single major irritant, the proposed prohibition of the hakapik.

This shows that a limited effort has allowed us to achieve something even though it doesn't cancel all the effects of the campaign of demagogy and doesn't change the minds of 800 million Europeans, of course. However, if we all pitch in, I believe that truth and logic will have a better chance to prevail. People don't say as much now in Europe that seals are an endangered species, even though they keep saying it on their web sites. There, they still say that it's endangered species. That's part of their arguments but when we talk to them and confront them, they become more reasonable. So, as far as I'm concerned, even small efforts may be productive. However, they have to be supported by very significant efforts from the government of Canada and from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you very much for that statement, Monsieur Blais.

We'll go to Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

I have just one quick question.

In your opinion, what is the most important thing the Government of Canada could do to help your industry?

[John Kearley]

It's rather difficult. I don't know if I can pin it down to just one thing: what will we do to help the industry?

I guess I keep coming back to seal oil. Right now what's needed is for the Canadian government to sponsor the proper clinical studies that will allow doctors to be able to say to their patients, “This is of benefit to you.”

I was at a conference in Ottawa two years ago on seal oil. It was attended by scientists from throughout the world who have been doing a fair amount of work on seal oil. One of the presenters was a Dr. Bruce Holub, from the University of Guelph. Dr. Holub suggested that the Canadian government would save $28 billion per year in health care costs if seal oil all of a sudden became used as a fighter against cholesterol. Most cholesterol-fighting drugs come in from the United States, such as Lipitor, Zocor, Crestor, and things like that. The Canadian government would save huge dollars in health care costs if Canadians were using seal oil as a cardiovascular medicine, I suppose.

So that's one thing that the Canadian government could do, sponsor these necessary clinical studies. The cost certainly would be, I guess, a few million dollars, but then the benefits would be far-reaching and would also certainly help the seal industry. As I say, it's a good-news story for the seal industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

Mr. Manning.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

I think it was Mr. Genge, I'm not sure, who made a comment that only those relying on the fishery should be allowed to participate in it. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but one of you gentlemen made the comment.

I think Mr. Kearley mentioned 14,000 licences. Would that be correct?

[John Kearley]

That was the estimate that David Bevan gave at the June 15 meeting of the committee. That would be total, throughout Canada, I would assume. Over the years I've attended many, many DFO information sessions and things like that, and that's the number that seems to keep popping up--between 11,000 and 14,000 licences.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

What I'm trying to get at is, out of that number, the people who are participating but not necessarily relying on it for part of their income. I know down in Placentia Bay, for example, we have a situation where we have a dentist in New Brunswick who holds a crab licence. These kinds of things frustrate our fishermen down there, and I'm sure in other areas it's probably the same way. I'm just trying to see whether you're looking at it from that point of view or from a recreational point of view when you say that people who participate in it should be relying on it.

[Rene Genge]

It's from a recreation point of view. In our fleet, vessels over 35 feet are not so big a problem. You have everyone who has a job and they're now in under-35-footers and speedboats that participate in the seal hunt. Some that are under 35 feet would be more recreational sealers than full-time sealers. Probably it is now.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Okay, on that issue, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you said that 20% of the income of your boat came from sealing participation this year.

[Rene Genge]

Yes, that's right.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

And that 20% cannot be included as part of your claim for EI.

[Rene Genge]

No, it's not supposed to be. The first thing they talk about is that if you have a company, you could probably get around it and do it, but you can't pay a labour stamp, not if you're taking a percentage, not really. It's supposed to be hourly. If you go out and have a two-day fishery and you pay a crew member $5,000 or $6,000, how much wage are you going to give him per hour? That's the fact. You can't put down and say you worked 20 hours and I'll give you $6,000.