Fisheries Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[Léonard Poirier]

It's another kind of surprise for the terrorists and others.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I think most of my colleagues would agree with that.

I'm going to ask Mr. Cormier for a quick comment, and then we need to go to our next questioner.

[Marcel Cormier, Administrator, Regroupement des pêcheurs professionnels des Îles-de-la-Madeleine]

Good afternoon.

I have been wondering something for a long time. If we leave aside the hunters from Newfoundland, the Magdalen Islands and the North Shore, are the rest of the people in Canada, from Ontario to British Columbia, for or against the hunt? It seems to me as though there is nothing beyond the Rideau Canal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

This is the opportunity for us to ask you questions.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

It's a legitimate question, and I'll try to paraphrase it for the rest of the committee members. It's safe to say that for those of us who represent fisheries ridings—and the majority of us do—and for those of us who live in rural or coastal or remote areas of Canada—and many of us do—there is a disconnect between rural and urban. We understand that. More and more, we have a difficult time getting our message across, living in rural Canada, to people in urban Canada, that fish don't come from the store, that milk doesn't come from a box, and that it's okay to carry on traditional hunting and fishing and farming practices. That's a big job. We have a big job to meet those challenges in the future. We recognize that. So your point is fairly considered.

We have to go to Mr. Matthews, our next questioner.

Very quickly, go ahead.

[Paul Boudreau]

The best way for the Canadian government to take a stand in defence of the hunt would be for the prime minister to make a clear and unequivocal statement at the time of the hunt. The prime minister could clearly state that the Canadian government stands behind the hunters and that the hunt is properly carried out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I will pass that message on, and to the Minister of Fisheries as well.

Mr. Matthews, please.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, gentlemen, for appearing. It's a real pleasure to be here with your member of Parliament, Mr. Blais. I think he's trying to kill us with kindness, because we've done a lot of eating—and some seal, which is good.

I don't want to make too much of a statement, but I want to say to you that the reason we're here is that we share your frustration. We recognize that successive federal governments have really failed to advance the cause and have mishandled the situation. That's why you as participants in the seal hunt are so frustrated and wondering where your federal government is.

That's the reason we're here. We're very sincere about the job we're trying to do, but we have to be sure we do it right, because we haven't done it right in the past. That's why we're in the difficulty we're in today. That's what this visit here is about, and to Newfoundland yesterday and to Nova Scotia later today.

I have a couple of quick questions, in the interest of time, because I know my colleagues want to ask some questions.

You would really like to see an increase in the harp seal TAC. One of you said that; I don't know which one of you. Can the marketplace sustain an increase in seals, an increase in the hunt? Is there a market for more seals?

[Paul Boudreau]

Yes, there certainly exists a market for an increase in the total allowable catch, the TAC. We are not talking about a very significant increase. Instead of allowing 325,000 catches, we could authorize up to 375,000. At that level, there would be no problem in the markets.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

The other thing that was mentioned was grey seals. Is there an identified market for grey seals?

[Paul Boudreau]

As far as grey seals are concerned, the market is building slowly. There is currently a problem, because the market for pelts or grey seal oil is very weak. There is a very small market. There could not be a big increase at this time. But the TAC should increase a little.

As far as the oil is concerned, the market is much more concerned with biodiesel. We are not talking about human consumption. Up until now, studies on biodiesel made with seal oil have shown excellent results. The Montreal Urban Community and biodiesel companies, amongst others, have carried out tests using seal oil and these have given excellent results.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Arseneau is next, and then Mr. Cyr.

[Joël Arseneau]

Regarding the increase of the total allowable catch, we need a minimal critical mass in order to sustain the industry, particularly in the Magdalen Islands sector. That is what we are discussing now. The industry should be allowed to reach a certain level of profitability. That is impossible with 18,000 pelts. We have to go find pelts elsewhere.

That is why we are saying that it is unfair. We cannot leave the industry struggling to survive. We are not greedy: we are talking about some 30,000 pelts out of a total quota. That is not an unreasonable amount.

[Jérémie Cyr]

Harp seals travel through the gulf. They cause a lot of damage and eat a lot of fish. You have to be aware that we cannot just deal with harp seals; we also have to deal with grey seals. There is market potential for harp seals, but also for grey seals.

Grey seals stay within the gulf of St. Lawrence throughout the year. The Sable Island population is about 300,000 seals, based on the most recent estimates. These animals live around Sable Island and travel throughout the gulf.

It is clear that the current market for grey seals is not very developed, and we have to address this issue immediately. We have to find a way to control the grey seal population before the situation becomes irreversible, because these animals eat fish throughout the year. This is becoming more and more obvious. You could be fishing for cod with a hook at the end of your line and when you have caught one, a seal will come up and snatch it away. Similarly, you cannot keep an Atlantic halibut which has been half eaten. So grey seals represent a huge problem.

We need to invest money to find new markets or to find ways of using every single part of the seal. I know that the government looked into the matter, but the project was shelved.

You cannot deal with harp seals without also dealing with grey seals. Otherwise, the entire fishing industry will suffer and the situation will become irreversible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Monsieur Lapierre, did you want to comment?

[Jean-Claude Lapierre]

I agree with the fact that the quota should be increased, as long as [Editor's note: inaudible] as far as managing the hunt is concerned. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans has a management plan, but we always have to be extremely careful because IFAW might file a complaint and the Humane Society always has us in its sights. We do not really want to increase the quota—because we are under pressure—to 360,000 or 375,000 seals, as Paul was saying. We know there is a market for these products, because some pelts were sold for $105 a piece in Newfoundland.

Last week, I heard a chemist make a presentation about collagen, which is used to treat severe burn victims and other conditions. This caught my attention, because it could drive up the price of seal's pelts skin tenfold. Collagen sells for between $30,000 and $40,000 per kilo. The product exists, but to research and to take advantage of this market, we will need government help.

We want to use every part of the seal. People criticize us because we leave behind the meat. We tried to create small businesses to sell the meat, but because these businesses received so little support from the provincial government, they had to close their operations.

I think that Canadians should get together and work together to find ways of using every part of the seal. No part should be left behind, not even the claws, which could perhaps be used to make small necklaces. It is true that there is a lot of waste.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Lapierre.

I'm going to move over to Mr. Manning, who will be our next questioner.

I have a quick point on the grey seal. There's a serious problem with grey seals in Nova Scotia, in la Nouvelle-Écosse. We have heard that now there is a resident herd there. It's not just the Sable Island herd; it's a resident herd. They whelp on the islands on the shore of Nova Scotia. They come up the rivers. They chase the salmon. They chase the gaspereau. They chase the smelts. Whatever is there to eat, they will eat. They open the lobster traps. They're seen as far offshore as 150 miles off the edge of Georges Bank.

I know a fisherman, a friend of mine, who set two tubs of trawl down there, with 400 hooks. When he hauled them in, about one-third of them had fish on them, and not one single fish could be kept. So you are right about grey seals: they're a serious problem and they're getting worse.

Sorry for that, gentlemen.

Mr. Manning.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

A chair is not supposed to speak.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

I'll never say.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses, and I'm certainly delighted with the opportunity to come and visit your community and for the invitation from Mr. Blais. He has given us a great initiation into your home and your cuisine, and we've enjoyed it tremendously.

As Mr. Matthews touched on, coming from Newfoundland and Labrador, I know how important the seal hunt is to you people here, as much as it is to our own province.

I would just like to take a slightly different edge to some of my questions, which relate to protesters on the ice interfering with your place of work and your work. I'd like to know if you have some experience with that and what your views are on whether government should be permitting these people to be on the ice or issuing permits for them to be on the ice.

Also, I would like someone to comment on the hakapik, which has been in the news lately. Some comments have been made about the use of it--its future use. It may become an issue.

My last question.... You decide who wants to answer. I think it was Mr. Boudreau who commented on the system in Newfoundland by 2008. There was some discussion on that in our Newfoundland meetings in regard to processing. Could you elaborate on the concerns you have there? Because there are also concerns in Newfoundland and Labrador about what may happen in 2008 in relation to processing.

So whoever wants to can take those couple of questions.

[Jérémie Cyr]

As far as the protesters are concerned, during the last hunting season, last spring—in any case, charges will be laid—the officers responsible for overseeing the situation lost complete control of it. On the one hand, you have a person who is trying to do his job as a hunter, a job he has been doing for many decades, and who is a victim—last year, it was even worse than in the past—of repeated provocations on the part of the protesters. On the other hand, you have a 65-foot boat and inflatable vessels with two people onboard who have brought cameras to take pictures, or two people who have cameras which transmit directly live images by satellite. There are no words to describe what hunters in general had to endure here around the Magdalen Islands when the protesters arrived in the gulf.

If the protesters had come to simply observe the hunt, that would not have been an issue, but some conditions would have had to have been respected, namely that they could not provoke the hunters or even put pressure on them, which might lead them to make mistakes. The hunters are at work, and they sometimes have to work in dangerous conditions. One of these days, there will be a catastrophe: an inflatable boat might sink or there might be another such accident. The hunters are at work, there are men on the ice, and there is a person in charge of monitoring the hunters. Then you have an inflatable craft which comes close in order to provoke the hunters. But since this boat cannot break the ice to get to where it wants, it follows the trail which has been broken by the hunters, the boat moves up directly behind the hunters and the person in charge of monitoring the situation has to keep an eye on both the protesters and the hunters. This does not make any sense from a security point of view. Last year, the situation became critical. The protesters were supposed to stay 30 feet away from the hunters, but they came closer.

It is all right to observe the hunt. There are organized tours to the Magdalen Islands for people who wish to observe the whitecoats. It is illegal to kill a whitecoat and people are there to observe the situation. There is a set period of time in which to do this, namely from March 1 to March 15. The observation is done from a helicopter. We don't agree with that approach, because it stresses the seals, but at least the people who observe the seals don't bother the hunters at work beginning March 20.

We have never had any problems with people who are on an observation tour; however, we always have problems with the people who want the seal hunt to be abolished. They come and endlessly provoke us, and each year, they organize a huge media event. For instance, someone said that a hunter had threatened a protesters with a knife. Imagine that! Our every move is monitored, they accuse us of being barbarians, but we are not; we are basically prisoners when we are out on a hunt. We have to watch our every move because we are being watched from all sides. And this doesn't just last for 5 or 10 minutes. Last year, protesters stayed with me for three hours. Other hunters were also surrounded for three or four hours. It is unconscionable for this type thing to be tolerated.

[Jean-Claude Lapierre]

In the spring, whelping happens 35 miles north-west of the islands. The abolitionists fly over the area by helicopter to find the mothers. No one ever talks about this, and it is something I want to denounce today. At one point, they will go down and see a herd of 100 females to find out whether they are ready to whelp. Since there isn't much ice left today, the herd is very concentrated. The seals are not used to seeing helicopters. When I hunted in a rowboat, there were no helicopters. Fishing was done on the ice. I am talking about respect for the environment, for the seals and for the females when they whelped; this issue is very dear to my heart. But these people will take the whitecoats away from their mothers, bring them some place else and take pictures of them. All this happens with the infernal noise of the helicopters in the background. By the way, the fuel used in these helicopters is the most polluting kind; I think you know that. But no one says anything. I've been going out on the ice floes for 55 years. I knew the ice floes before Bardot showed up, when everything was perfectly still and quiet, but now, I look at the ice floes and see that the life of the female seals is not respected any more. As you saw this morning, when a helicopter shows up, the females are in a certain position. There's a reason for that. When you look at pictures of seals in the water, those are the mothers. Observers take pictures and work on the ice: but that land is ours and we live off the land. I want to denounce what is happening today.

I would be curious to find out which biologist would contradict me by saying that the seals eat immediately after having heard the infernal noise and felt the vibrations of the helicopters when they land on the ice. People say that the boat propellers make noise, but no one ever mentions the noise from the helicopter rotor. I would like the Canadian government to look into this issue. We developed our tourism market when the market for whitecoats disappeared. It was a matter of survival. Today, I am wondering about its raison d'être. I do not want to cause controversy in the Magdalen Islands, because those who work in the tourism industry will be very upset with me, but we all have to get real.

If the herd is frightened and the young seals are not well fed, the ice will be gone by the time they reach their maximum growth. The seals will be in the Strait of Belle Isle, 250 miles away from the Magdalen Islands. That's what's happening today. The hunt will be held more and more often in the Strait of Belle Isle because the ice will have disappeared from the gulf. We have to protect the herd from noise. As Jérémie said a little earlier, they fly so close to the ice floes that they scare the beaters into the water, so that it's not possible to hunt them anymore. Just imagine how frustrated we are when we try to exercise our rights. You might have a herd of 500 or 600 seals, but then they are scared into the water and we cannot hunt them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Merci, Monsieur Lapierre.

Monsieur Arseneau.

[Joël Arseneau]

There are legal limits to how closely a person can observe the hunt. It would be better if the government was on the side of the hunt and the hunters, and reviewed its legislation to tighten the criteria for observing seals. If you follow the news, you will realize that in almost every area, when the courts, be it at the civil, criminal or international level, have a case before them, the activity in question continues until a ruling is made.

But what we are dealing with is rather unique. It is as if people took for granted the fact that observation is a necessary evil and that we have to live with its consequences, rather than take the opposite approach. In fact, we should begin by saying that observation is useless, and that if there is no way around it, it should be allowed under extremely strict conditions. But the opposite is happening today. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans should act on a policy to strictly limit observation for all the reasons we mentioned before, including security. We are convinced that we could defend this approach in court and win.