Evidence of meeting #28 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was science.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Miriam Burke
Larry Murray  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Cal Hegge  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources and Corporate Services, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Bevan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Sue Kirby  Assistant Deputy Minister, Oceans and Habitat, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
George Da Pont  Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Sylvain Paradis  Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I call the meeting to order.

We have a reduced quorum and it is time to start. We won't keep everyone waiting. It's supplementary estimates.

From the Department of Fisheries and Oceans we have Mr. Larry Murray, deputy minister; George Da Pont, Commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard; David Bevan, assistant deputy minister, fisheries and aquaculture management; and Sue Kirby, assistant deputy minister, oceans and habitat.

Do we want to go directly? Our witnesses really don't have to present anything.

11:05 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Miriam Burke

They do have a presentation.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

They have a presentation?

Go ahead, gentlemen.

11:05 a.m.

Larry Murray Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a pleasure for me and the officials to be here today to discuss supplementary estimates. As you know, the minister will be back next week to carry on the discussion.

With your permission, Mr. Chair, Cal Hegge, who is the acting assistant deputy minister for human resources and corporate services, and the department's senior financial officer, will give a very brief presentation on the supplementary estimates to provide some background.

And as always, we will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

11:05 a.m.

Cal Hegge Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources and Corporate Services, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Good morning.

I'm speaking to a deck that's entitled “Overview of the 2006-2007 Report on Plans and Priorities and Supplementary Estimates”. I'll go right to slide 3.

What we're attempting to do through this deck in terms of context is relate the main estimates to the report on plans and priorities, which the committee discussed the last time we were here, and of course the supplementary estimates. The main estimates identify the main spending authorities of Parliament, and for this particular year the main estimates were tabled on April 25, 2006. The report on plans and priorities, which we discussed briefly last time, provides our anticipated spending plans by our strategic outcomes and our program activities and expected results.

This year was an unusual year, in that the RPP wasn't tabled until September 26, 2006. As we identified last time, the RPP reflects what we anticipate we're going to spend, and it is accurate as of that particular time. As we discussed at our last meeting, there have been some changes, which we'll get into a little bit later on in the deck.

The supplementary estimates, which is the main purpose for our presence this morning, were tabled on October 30, 2006, and they're currently going through the parliamentary process for approval. The final step in the process is the departmental performance report. It will be tabled some time this month, but that will speak to our performance for 2005 and 2006, obviously, given that this year is not finished yet.

On slide 4 we have a representation of main estimates over main estimates. As you can see from 2005-2006 to the current year, just based on a comparison of main estimates, our departmental estimates have increased roughly by 5%, or $73 million.

On slide 5 we get into a representation of how we track from the main estimates to the report on plans and priorities. Again, this chart is by program activity. Our department has nine activities. They're listed in the left-hand column of the chart. And as you'll note, we've broken out “science” separately, which supports each of our three strategic outcomes. So if you go to the third-last column, going from right to left where we have the total main estimates figures, in the next column to the right you see the adjustments, which total $162.4 million, which gives us the adjusted figure of $1.6758 billion, which is reflected in the RPP.

The next slide identifies the supplementary estimates. Again, you'll note that going from our main estimates figure, which has been approved, we are requesting through supplementary estimates roughly $217 million, which, if approved, would bring our revised spending authority to $1.7308 billion. You will note that is higher than the report on plans and priorities figure.

The meat of the presentation is reflected on the next slide, page 7, and there we track again from the main estimates figure, the planned adjustments we considered in putting together the report on plans and priorities. So there you see in that first column to the right the $162.4 million, which was the additional amount we had anticipated spending as reflected in our RPP. The far-right column reflects the amount of money we're asking for through the supplementary estimates.

You will note that for many of the items we had anticipated spending through the RPP, we are requesting the funding through supplementary estimates. So the big ticket items like the Atlantic salmon endowment fund and our additional funding of $99 million through the transformational plan are in both columns, and we are asking for the amount of money through the supplementary estimates.

You'll see some additional amounts we're also requesting through supplementary estimates that we did not consider or did not know the figures at the time of the RPP. I would draw to your attention the carry-forward that combined with the Marshall carry-forward is roughly $65 million. So that's a fairly substantial figure we did not have defined at the time of the RPP.

It takes you to the bottom line of what we are requesting through supplementary estimates. Again, if approved by Parliament, that would give us a revised spending level of $1.7 billion, approximately.

I won't dwell on the next few slides for very long. They basically take the revised spending figure and slice and dice it in a number of different ways. For example, on page 8 we have the revised spending by program activity.

As I said, against our strategic outcomes, we have nine activities within the department. To help you with some of the acronyms, HAPAE is “healthy and productive aquatic ecosystems”. That's one of our strategic outcomes. The SFA is “sustainable fisheries and aquaculture”, and SAW is the “safe accessible waterways”.

That basically shows the spending, by activity. We have grouped the science together, because science supports each of those strategic outcomes.

On slide 9, we have the same total amount divided by sector. The main difference here is that what we call “program enablers” are shown separately. The categories across the top of the chart, such as communications, corporate services, etc., are all part of the enablers.

On slide 10, we have the planned spending. Again, it's the same figure, by region. You will note the figure for national programs is fairly large, but that includes an amount of money that in most cases is actually transferred to the regions through the course of the year.

Finally--and I won't speak to this unless there are any questions--as annex A, we have our revised planned spending by program subactivity. In other words, it includes the nine activities and subactivities in support of those, for each of 2006-07, 2007-08, and 2008-09. Again, recognizing that 2007-08 and 2008-09 is planned spending, those figures are obviously going to adjust over time.

That completes my presentation, Mr. Chair. We'd be pleased to answer any questions from the committee.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

We appreciate the brevity. I'm certain our members will have a lot of questions on estimates.

Mr. Cuzner.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thank you very much for being here today, and for the testimony.

I have a couple of questions. I probably won't use all the time, but I guess it depends on the answers.

The first question is about the Atlantic salmon endowment fund. Can we get a bit of a ramp-up as to where that is now and if that fund is ready to roll out?

11:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

As I think you probably know, Mr. Chair, the minister did announce that. We are in the final stages. There is a recipient group, if I can describe them as that, that has been put together. We still need the appropriation act to go through, and then it will be ready to move forward.

David, I don't know whether you want to add anything to that.

11:10 a.m.

David Bevan Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

I think a lot of the work has been done to date. We are ready for that final stage, the approval, and then we will move the money to the group. They will then be able to start the process of administering it.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Could you walk me through the genesis of that? There was an announcement today in the Fredericton paper, The Daily Gleaner, about that money. That money had initially been announced in budget 2004, or the fiscal update in 2004, I think. Are we announcing money that was already announced before? What was the purpose of the announcement yesterday?

11:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

The announcement yesterday confirms that this government supports the implementation of a $30 million Atlantic salmon endowment fund. In fact, this committee has been fairly active on this file, as you know, for a number of years. I'm not sure whether the previous government announced it, Mr. Chair, and I don't know whether we can confirm that.

The announcement on Tuesday was effectively in the context of expenditure reviews and all of that. Everything has been reviewed. Following that review, it was determined that the Atlantic salmon endowment fund will go forward.That was confirmed by Minister Hearn in Fredericton.

There has been a fair amount of work going on behind the scenes, in the sense that whilst activity was under way with reviewing expenditures and all of that, the effort carried on. In any case, we still needed a recipient group, because this is a trust fund that is arm's length from government. I don't think a bunch of time was wasted, but I take from your question that you have a kind of an impatience to get on with it.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Mr. Murray, all I'm trying to get at is just the steps. It was in the budget document, as I understood it, and I think it was 2004 that it would have been announced.

In terms of the budget, is that money peeled out and allocated at the time? Is there a set-aside provision or something like that?

I understand fully, with the committee being operated as a trust at arm's length, that it be imperative that those things take place. But had the money been peeled out and allocated before, set aside until we were ready to go? Is that how it worked?

11:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

It was never my recollection...and I would have to confirm whether it was in the public domain. I believe it was in the public domain in the previous government. It was, I think, supported by all parties. But like other announcements by former governments that had not yet gone through the entire approval process, it was something that still had to be considered by the new government. The new government, following its consideration, has determined that this project will go forward. It is formally moving forward, approved by this government, the final step being the appropriation act, one presumes, shortly.

In the meantime, work was going on. Unlike departmental funding, this did require, and does require, a credible group of folks prepared to step up to the plate, take the money, and cause it to be expended appropriately.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Just on that final point, they're ready to pretty much outlay for their goal, their mandate, to actually engage in doing some of the work now. Are we that close?

11:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

I wouldn't really want to speak for them. In other words, once we have the appropriation act, they probably would be a good group for the committee to talk to. I'm sure they would be pleased to outline their plans. It is at arm's length to government, and I'd be a little bit uncomfortable situating where they might go with the trust.

Obviously we have ideas, as I'm sure you do, and I suspect there'll be some congruence there since it's all about Atlantic salmon, the preservation of Atlantic salmon, enhancing Atlantic salmon, and so on. But I think it would be more appropriate to have that body speak for themselves when they're ready to do so.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

How much time is left, Mr. Chair?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

You have about four minutes left.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I know that my colleague is going to pursue some small craft harbour stuff, but perhaps I can ask you what the overall budget for small craft harbours is for this year.

11:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

It's $97.6 million, with $20 million sunsetting next year.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

That was the $20 million for five years--

11:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

--that's sunsetting next year?

11:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

That currently is sunsetting next year. The minister obviously has views on that, but at the moment, yes, it's sunsetting next year.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Over and above that, is there a ministerial reserve?

11:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

The ministerial reserve is part of the $97 million. As the committee would be aware, we have in the past moved money to small craft harbours at the end of the year, when we could or as opportunities presented themselves, because of the urgency of the program. From the $99 million increase to our A-base, $11 million of that goes to small craft harbours.

But that program is still under significant pressure, no question.