Fisheries Committee on Dec. 12th, 2006

[Dr. David Lavigne]

I referred to the 2000 paper we published in Conservation Biology. I could refer to our most recent effort, which is a book on the pursuit of ecological sustainability, which is largely what we are talking about. This was published in June of this year. We do, in fact, do original science.

The paper I referred to by Leaper and Matthews in my presentation that's now been submitted to a scientific journal is an original piece of science.

So yes, there is this a difference between how we deal with the seal hunt and how WWF deals with it.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

We are interested in science around this table. We had the scientists here at our last meeting and we'd like to see more money. There is a lot about the oceans on which we agree. We do not know fully about ecosystems and how they interrelate.

I want to come back to you on a question about your organization. How many full-time and part-time staff do you employ in the campaign against the Canadian seal hunt?

[Dr. David Lavigne]

I'm the science adviser. I couldn't tell you. We have offices in 15 countries. We do work on a whole variety of issues, from elephants to seals. We work in about 50 countries right now.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

How many would be engaged in the campaign against the Canadian seal hunt?

[Dr. David Lavigne]

On a full-time basis? I'm not sure, maybe 15, 10 to 15.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

I wonder if Rebecca would care to answer that question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Very quickly. Everyone is going over time, and I'm trying to be lenient.

[Rebecca Aldworth]

Okay.

You made some pretty strong statements, and I'd like to respond to them.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

I'd like you to answer the question I asked, though, first, directed to you, about the number of people you employ full-time—

[Rebecca Aldworth]

The number of people we employ full-time?

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

—in the campaign against the Canadian seal hunt.

[Rebecca Aldworth]

Full-time, there is myself.... I don't know. Fewer than IFAW, I would say.

I couldn't possibly hazard a guess as to how many people there are full-time. There is no full-time person working on this issue in our organization. Like IFAW, we have campaigners who work on many issues, public relations people who work on many issues. Combined, I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess, but not as many as I would assume you're thinking.

Could I just respond...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

No. I'll tell you what, we're going to have to work it into an answer. We have gone severely over time. I have a number of other members who want to ask questions.

You can certainly reply, Ms. Aldworth, on anything that I've cut you off on, in writing to the committee, but we do have to allow the rest of our members an opportunity to ask questions.

Mr. Cuzner.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much, and thanks for your appearance here today.

I certainly can't challenge any of the science—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Or the math.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

—or the math. That's a good point.

There are two things, though. Ms. Aldworth, you did make two statements that I can absolutely and unequivocally challenge.

My family is in the fishery, my friends are in the fishery, I live in the fishing community, and my riding is a coastal community. I have never, not once—and I'll swear this on my kids' health—ever heard a fisherman say they don't believe that the seals have had an impact on the fish stocks. To fishermen, they believe that there is an impact. They know those other factors are out there—overfishing, the whole list of factors—but they believe the seals are a significant factor.

The other small point was that you said the sealing was not a hunt for food. In fact, it is. What I know is about the economics of my community. It's easy to dismiss $1,500. I have families in my community who would feed their families for two months on $1,500; it's significant.

You've stated that there are three components to your concern around the fishery: where it takes place, how it operates, and over the period of time.

As to where it takes place, we're not able to control that. We could invite the seals to the parking lot of Mile One Centre, but I don't know how many would show up. I'm just being cute with it. We have to go to where the seal population is.

As to how it operates, that's what we're talking about here, because we want to look at best practices and we want to look at what we can do.

And on the period of time, you've had the exchange already about the period of time.

Let's get right down to the nub of the issue. In your view, can seals be hunted humanely?

[Rebecca Aldworth]

No, not in the commercial seal hunt in Canada. No, not in the environment that, as you already pointed out, it has to operate in, and not in the time scale it also, I know, has to operate in.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

No, but you're qualifying it now. What you're saying is there's absolutely no way we can have a humane hunt in Canada.

[Rebecca Aldworth]

In the commercial seal hunt, no.

On another comment you made, about the incomes of people living in rural communities in Canada, in Newfoundland we do have poverty in the outports, and that poverty will not be addressed by the commercial seal hunt. That poverty could be addressed by a better distribution of wealth in the fishery. It could be addressed by not building $60-million cultural centres in St. John's when you have, supposedly, people starving to death around the bay. It could be addressed by better labour union practices. It could be addressed by a lot of things. One thing that will not address it is expanding or continuing the commercial seal hunt.

Yes, it is a tiny bit of money. There is a lot more money that is not going to the right places in Newfoundland, and that's something this committee might want to look at, if you're really genuinely concerned about the impact on people around the bay.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Well, I am genuinely concerned.

And again, coming back to my colleague Mr. Lunney, I'm offended that you would think I'm anything but concerned about the well-being of the people I represent. That is offensive.

[Rebecca Aldworth]

I have not said that. What I have said is that I think the outcome of this panel is predetermined.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

You asked if we were genuinely concerned about the people who are involved in this fishery.

[Rebecca Aldworth]

I said that if you are, then this is one thing you should look at.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Well, we are concerned about this.

But what we're talking about is whether—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

We can only have one speaker at a time.

Mr. Cuzner.