Evidence of meeting #5 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dfo.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marvin Rosenau  As an Individual
Frank Kwak  As an Individual

9:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Marvin Rosenau

I think the point that you make is really important, and the issue on the Fraser River in regard to Fraser gravel removal is that the decisions are taken out of the technical field because it's been so politicized, and the direct decisions of where and how gravel will be taken out is being made at the senior executive level or senior management level. So the scenario that you described about not being able to take a rock or a stick out of a stream has been flipped totally to the other side of the coin here on the Fraser. It's been politicized and a process is not being undertaken.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I don't want to take up any more time, but I appreciate just the background information because I didn't have it, and I hope that it might have been helpful to others who were new to the issue as well.

9:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Marvin Rosenau

And this isn't the worst site. There are other sites upstream that were done this year, where fish weren't killed but habitat was destroyed and there's absolutely no benefit to flood protection, there's no benefit to gravel aggregation.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thank you, Mr. Byrne.

Monsieur Roy, seven minutes.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I listened to Mr. Byrne asking questions, I wondered whether I didn't understand very well what you said. You are saying that DFO didn't authorize the building of the road in question or that, if they did, they didn't commit themselves to enforcement. Am I right?

9:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Marvin Rosenau

There was an authorization that included an opportunity for a causeway or a mechanism to get the gravel across, but this particular design, as we read the authorization, was not authorized.

The issue surrounding the mortality of fish was not authorized. There's no indication that DFO knew that there were fish downstream of the causeway. There's no indication that they knew that there was a mortality that occurred. We were the first folks to actually inventory or assess this particular mortality event.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

I have some difficulty to believe that DFO didn't know that there was fish downstream. There is a problem here.

9:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Marvin Rosenau

From my perspective, I think it's the cavalier attitude of the senior management toward the Fraser River. The Fraser River has been sort of treated separately in terms of its habitat values. It has not been recognized in terms of its extraordinary fish community, so it has been treated very separately. And because of the intense politicization of gravel removal by the provincial government, the local government and DFO, the process has been sort of subverted.

We know how to take gravel out from rivers for flood protection. There's a watershed nearby that actually flows into the Fraser, called the Vedder-Chilliwack, and it's a very transparent process. It's a very iterative process. The technical guys go in and measure how much gravel has come in from the previous two years. Pink salmon spawn every two years, so we always do it in the off year when pink salmon are not adversely affected. So we measure how much gravel has come in, we conduct a hydraulic model to determine where the surface elevation of the water has increased to the point at which it's endangering dikes, then once we've figured that out the technical staff go in and figure out which locations gravel should come out. It's then taken out and the decision is based solely on technical advice.

The direction at the political and executive level is to maintain flood protection, and the politicians or the executive or senior managers don't interfere in terms of where, how, and how much gravel should come out. In the case of the Fraser, it's totally different. It's “this is where it's going to come out and these are the guys who are going to take it out”.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

If I am right, you think that gravel extraction was politicized by the provincial government and by the executive of the Department. Even when politicized, things can be done in a proper way. I cannot understand why it was not the case. I wonder why the gravel couldn't be removed in a proper way. You are saying that this was politicized but to what extent was it politicized?

That guy who extracted the gravel could have abided by the regulations. Why didn't he do so? Why did the Department not stop immediately the work as soon as he knew the regulation wasn't met? I think that, in this case, the problem is mainly that the executive has been incompetent by not being aware of what was happening.

9:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Marvin Rosenau

I agree with you in many regards that it can be done properly. I'll put it this way: when it comes to the difference between protection of human life and property and fish, human life and property always win. There's no question about that. In effect, I have worked on these issues for 25 years. I know those are the hard, cold facts.

I think that you have to go back in the history of the Fraser River in this area. Gravel removal is very valuable for the aggregate companies. There's been a lot of history with regard to aggregate companies trying to get their hands on these very valuable gravel resources. The local community and some of the aggregate producers were very frustrated throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, viewing the agency technical staff as interfering with gravel removal. So in 2003, the technical team—which I was part of—was disbanded and was, in effect, removed from the decision-making process. Staff were in fact reassigned.

I was basically—in part because of Fraser River gravel removal—taken out of the provincial government and actually seconded out of the government for a year and a half. And as the assistant deputy minster told me, there was nothing wrong with my science vis-à-vis these particular issues; it was only that the eastern Fraser Valley MLAs didn't want me meddling with gravel removal. She was very clear about that.

The politicization of gravel is very strong.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

This answers my question. Thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Merci, Monsieur Roy.

Mr. Stoffer, five minutes.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

Sir, that woman that you mentioned, what was her name, the one who talked about the MLAs not wanting to be politicized?

9:35 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Marvin Rosenau

That was Nancy Wilkin, the assistant deputy minister. She reassigned me on October 30, 2003.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Is she still there?

9:35 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Marvin Rosenau

Yes, she's still the assistant deputy minister of the Ministry of Environment.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Chairman, these two fine gentlemen gave a great presentation; they also made some fairly serious allegations.

Sir, I assume--and correct me if I'm wrong--that there are aboriginal groups within your various associations, the associations you're part of. Is that correct?

9:35 a.m.

As an Individual

Frank Kwak

There are no aboriginal groups within the people I represent. I represent the sport fishery.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

There are no aboriginal fishermen?

9:35 a.m.

As an Individual

Frank Kwak

They fish with nets; we fish with hook and line.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

When you mentioned these ongoing concerns, you were met, as you had indicated, by Mr. Wild, who said your comments were based on racism and anti-aboriginal concerns, as compared to dealing with the problems you see in representing your organizations in terms of fish habitat and protection. Is this the first time Mr. Wild has made this accusation against you?

9:35 a.m.

As an Individual

Frank Kwak

To the best of my knowledge, yes. It was done in the press.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Do you have any indications as to why he may have done that?

9:35 a.m.

As an Individual

Frank Kwak

I think possibly he was looking for an excuse to get out of how he was going to deal with the situation.