Fisheries Committee on June 1st, 2006

[Frank Kwak]

That's difficult to answer, because I haven't seen the full MOU. I have looked at some of it--at the initial one that came out.

The one thing I can tell you is that from a recreational perspective, we are very upset that this CSAB commercial whatever-it's-called has negotiated on their own with first nations some kind of memorandum of understanding that is going to give the first nations folks an economic opportunity on their own without any consultation whatsoever with the recreational fishery; we have been totally left out of that picture.

How that originally happened was that at some high-level meetings the Cultus Lake issue came up, and a sidebar group got together. It turned out that although first nations had been given an opportunity to attend these high-level meetings, they refused to do so or did not show up, so the commercial sector decided they would like to meet with them on their own, because they were told by DFO that in order for them to be able to fish sockeye with a higher exploitation rate on Cultus Lake, they would have to get first nations on side, so they had some of these meetings. From what I understand, they have come up with some sort of agreement that has not received approval from DFO and certainly has not involved recreation in any way, shape, or form.

Other than the fact that we have been copied on this from a friendly source such as Phil Eidsvik, as you were mentioning, we really know nothing about it.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Kamp, you have the last question.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to follow up on that, the department's perspective on that MOU is that it's advice to the department. They will take it into consideration, along with other advice that they get on what the fishing management plan should be for this year, as well as information from their own scientists, etc., and will present their own recommendations to the minister, and he'll decide. The notion that this is somehow binding on the department at this point I think is just not right.

Just to follow up on the gravel and end this, did either of you, when you were out there, go up the river and find other de-watered redds that were obviously not due to this road, this causeway?

[Dr. Marvin Rosenau]

Yes, there's natural de-watering of redds all over the place. That's not an unusual circumstance. You can point those out; they are very clear in their demarcation. Recently de-watered gravel has a very different colour. It hasn't dried out yet; it is still moist. De-watering of redds is a natural occurrence on the Fraser.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

So potentially a certain percentage of fish always die?

[Dr. Marvin Rosenau]

I would say so. But the thing about these pink salmon, particularly in this channel, was that the bulk of the redds were below this particular perimeter. There were some above the perimeter that had been de-watered, so there would have been--it looked to us like there were some naturally de-watered redds. Nature is a cruel mistress. But they tend to be below those low-water-discharge elevations.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Okay. Good.

I'd like to go back to the ceremonial block--licence I guess they are calling it now--that is available to the Cheam. I actually saw the calendar on which the band had to identify how many fish they wanted for which event, and I guess it came out to 115. But as of just a few days ago, I was told that only 37 of those had been caught, largely because the river is not fishing very well right at the moment with the high water.

Would you think that figure is likely to be wrong, a long way off the real number?

[Frank Kwak]

If I could convince you that they've caught only 37 fish, there's a bridge that I'd like to sell you.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Tell me why you think that.

[Frank Kwak]

The reason is that the Cheam Band has been assigned all sorts of names. The reality is that the Cheam Band is a very militant band. They have blocked a railroad. They have dug up the road and refused access and stood there in balaclavas, and all sorts of things. It seems to me that they are continually rewarded for their vigilance and their stand-firm sorts of presentations.

Unfortunately, what happens with the Cheam ultimately winds up happening farther downriver with other bands as well. What the Cheam get, the rest ultimately get, and driftnet fishing is a perfect example of that.

But I would caution you against thinking that only 37 fish have been caught, because to be able to say that for sure, there would have to be proper monitoring. And to prove that proper monitoring was occurring--if they were fishing 24 hours a day, seven days a week, over any given timeframe--they would have to show me who the monitors were and what they recorded, because we have found in past practice that they, of all people, are not very accurate in their monitoring.

We have other first nations bands that are excellent at monitoring, but the Cheam certainly are not.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

I certainly understand that perspective.

Just for clarification, what we were told was that there were 37 out of that ceremonial block. They are also catching sea fish. I think 170 is the total number that I've heard about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Lunney, you said you had a brief question?

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Yes. I would just like to follow up on Mr. Kamp's question--and I am going back to something I was maybe a little slow on processing.

When you're talking about the 400,000 fish in cold storage, which were cultural and ceremonial, is this the same band, the Cheam Band, that you're talking about?

[Frank Kwak]

That is correct.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Am I getting something right here? Those fish are cultural and social, and they were supposed to take up to 115 fish per person. Is that last year you were talking about?

[Frank Kwak]

The fish that are in cold storage are fish from last year, mostly sockeye. The fish they're talking about now are fish they need for food, social, and ceremonial reasons. They could go to their cold storage and actually take these fish out of cold storage and use them, but they're down in Vancouver in cold storage facilities, and they're not prepared to do that; they want fresh fish.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

There seems to be a disconnect somehow here. If they have 400,000 surplus that weren't needed for food, social, and ceremonial and are just in cold storage, why are they taking more fish this season that are not being monitored? Was there some question mark about the 37?

[Frank Kwak]

I think they would tell you they don't have them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Lunney.

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Would it be possible for Mr. Kwak to make available for the committee copies of those newspaper articles where Mr. Wild was making his comments?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Sure.

[Frank Kwak]

I'm sorry, what was the question?

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Can you bring those newspaper articles?

[Frank Kwak]

Our local newspaper articles? Yes, I could get them to you; I can do that.