Evidence of meeting #5 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dfo.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
In that span that you showed us, I wonder if you could just give us the distance that was actually shown on the scale on that area.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Just on the entire map there with the six or seven bars that you pointed out there.
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
There would have been two bars right here. Big Bar is right over here. Popkum is right there and then Hamilton is right there and Seabird Island--if there was some taken out, which I think there was--is somewhere up there.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
10:15 a.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
I have just one question.
Concerning your obvious frustration with local management and senior management of DFO within British Columbia, were you at all able, in writing, to address these concerns to the minister? Because obviously you weren't getting the responses you were looking for, or the action you requested, did you then make representation either through your local MPs or whatever, or did you make representation to the Minister of Fisheries?
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
Included in my package of material, which I didn't speak on but which is there, there are numerous letters written to Paul Sprout, the regional director general, Jim Wild, and to a number of other people with concerns that we have.
10:15 a.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
But you didn't address any of these concerns to the new Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Hearn?
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes, there was also a letter written to Minister Loyola Hearn.
10:15 a.m.
NDP
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen for coming all this way.
Dr. Rosenau, I suppose you find it somewhat ironic that the current B.C. Minister of the Environment is one of those eastern Fraser Valley MLAs. In fact, he's the MLA for this area where Big Bar is. He wasn't the Minister of the Environment in 2003.
Dr. Rosenau, I was out there as well, not right at the time when you and Frank and others were out there, but I did walk the area and on that bar. DFO told me that they realized there were certainly some lessons to be learned and that mistakes were made. My understanding is that they're preparing some sort of comprehensive report after having done a review on this. It should be ready by the middle of June or so. They also told me they would be doing some sort of multi-sectoral review, including talking to other people who were close to it.
My first question is whether either of you have been asked recently, within the last month or so, to actually contribute to that review.
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
I was at a sport fish advisory main board meeting and Paul Sprout, the regional director general, was there. He told us at that meeting that a Mr. Woo was going to be doing some investigative research into this with the committee. He told me privately that Mr. Woo would be contacting me very shortly. I have yet to hear from Mr. Woo, although there have been numerous e-mails back and forth with Marvin and Mr. Woo.
The only contact that I have received is from Ross Neuman, and he wanted to meet with me privately, as I am a signator on a paper that we prepared along with BCIT--well, BCIT is the main proponent of the paper. It was decided after talking with the others that it was probably not a good idea for me to just speak individually, because what we want to see happen is a dialogue going two ways so that we can ask questions as well as answer questions. It appears at the moment that the only way DFO is prepared to deal with this is for them to ask us questions. We can lay all of our cards on the table, but they're not prepared to answer any questions and concerns we have.
That's the only contact I have had.
10:20 a.m.
As an Individual
Basically, the BCIT group has had some dialogue with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, with Ed Woo, specifically, who is chairing the review committee, and they have told us they'd like to come out and see our report, basically talk about what we found and how they can do things better next time.
I've taken the position that I'm totally prepared to talk about our report and give them all the information--we've given people practically all the information already--but we want it to be a two-way dialogue; we want to be able to ask them questions. They have steadfastly refused to have a two-way dialogue. A lot of the stuff we're talking about today, the comments by Jim Wild or Dale Paterson, are in the media. We're very cognizant of the fact that the media can often twist things around. So we want to get the real goods on it, and DFO has steadfastly refused to have a two-way conversation.
We've set out a series of questions that we would ask and we would like to get answers for--really simple questions like how they could come to the conclusion that a rock berm would have enough porosity so that enough water could get through, what their inventory and assessment was, or why they picked this particular mode of transport.
We've been told through my boss, Mark Angelo, and Greg Savard that DFO is now prepared to have a two-way dialogue. This might happen on July 12 or 13. We're going into the meeting taking a positive approach that DFO will answer our questions to the best of their ability. One of the reasons we wanted to talk to the DFO technical staff was basically to try to error-proof our report. We don't want to say a bunch of stuff in our report that is just wrong. If our interpretation is wrong, tell us now.
There was, I think, a lot of embarrassment in DFO when our executive summary was released. I think the heart of the matter in the report is potentially even more embarrassing. But if there's something wrong in the report, tell us. We'll modify the report; we'll pull back our criticism--or we may even increase our criticism of it. But make it technically strong so that you guys don't do this again.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy
We're out of time on that round, unless any members have more questions. I don't want members to leave, because we have an issue that we need to settle today after the witnesses leave.
Mr. Cummins, do you have another question?
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
John Cummins Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
Yes, I do.
I'd like to get back if I could, Frank, to your business on enforcement. It was one of the issues that we wanted you to address this morning.
We talked briefly a few minutes ago about the ceremonial fishery and the extent to which that's been operating the last couple of months. In the written documentation that you presented, you noted that one of the key issues in the Williams report was the lack of the ability of the department to account for fish moving through cold storage, and what not, and that some accommodation has been made there.
You mentioned that in 2005 there were two million pounds of sockeye salmon taken in the first nations food, social, and ceremonial fisheries that's being held in cold storage. That number is fairly accurate and is a DFO number, is it not?
10:20 a.m.
As an Individual
To the best of my knowledge, yes, it is a number that is still outstanding.
We're actually wondering what's going to happen to those fish. This year they're probably going to have some pretty good economic opportunities, and it is my considered opinion that some of the cold storage fish will be moved out of the freezers through that economic opportunity.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
John Cummins Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
On that number, DFO personnel have advised me that there were about two million pounds of sockeye salmon taken in those first nations fisheries that ended up in cold storage. There has already been some bleeding away of that and there may be only about 500,000 pounds left, from what I understand.
Once there's an economic opportunity in fisheries, these fish aren't marked in any way. Isn't it impossible for enforcement people to tell whether those fish were caught in a commercial fishery or in a food, social, and ceremonial fishery?
10:25 a.m.
As an Individual
You're absolutely correct. There is no way to mark those fish.