Fisheries Committee on May 17th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), I'd like to proceed to the main estimates 2007-2008, votes 1, 5, and 10 under Fisheries and Oceans, referred to the committee on February 27, 2007.

I welcome Deputy Minister Larry Murray and officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard.

Deputy Minister Murray has to leave early, so if we could start early, that would be a benefit to everyone.

Mr. Murray.

[Larry Murray, Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll introduce the officials who are with me today: Michaela Huard, ADM, policy; Dr. Wendy Watson-Wright, assistant deputy minister, science; Kevin Stringer, director general, fisheries resource management directorate; George Da Pont, Commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard; Cal Hegge, ADM, human resources and corporate services; and Sue Kirby, ADM, oceans and habitat.

I have no opening statement. We're ready to take questions when you wish, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Do we have a first questioner?

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I want to start with the issue of enforcement in the inland rivers. I know in my particular province we have enforcement issues all around, and it seems that where a federal government presence is needed for enforcement on the inland rivers, it is not there any more. And that spans now the last two to three years.

To what extent does this particular budget in the estimates address enforcement?

[Larry Murray]

Thank you for the question.

In terms of the specific numbers around enforcement, I'll ask Mr. Hegge in a minute to respond to that. In terms of the enforcement on the inland waters and so on of Newfoundland and Labrador, we actually still do a fair amount of enforcement. We have a very close working relationship with the provincial authorities in that regard and do a number of joint operations.

I'm not sure whether Mr. Stringer could give more details, but certainly we could give quite specific details. This is an area of concern to the minister and to the province, and we have been working, I think, quite closely with Newfoundland and Labrador in that context.

Kevin.

[Kevin Stringer, Director General, Resource Management Directorate, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Yes.

In the Newfoundland region we have 155 FTEs in our conservation and protection unit in terms of enforcement officers. They are largely on the coasts, but we do have arrangements with the Province of Newfoundland on inland fisheries.

Jurisdiction for inland fisheries is provincial, but with respect to salmon it's us, so we work with the province. We also have arrangements in Newfoundland, and in particular in Labrador, with aboriginal groups. The Labrador Inuit and the Labrador Métis and the Innu all have fisheries guardians. We have a guardian program in Newfoundland writ large as well.

That's sort of the state of play. We can get specific details if you wish.

[Larry Murray]

Mr. Chair, I would like to provide a written response, if we could, because it's a really good question. It is an area of some concern and controversy, and in fact we do put a fair amount of effort into this. And we work closely with the province as well. But it is an area that is of concern, and I would like to come back with a written response to put the details on paper of what we do and what the province does in this area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

The committee would appreciate that.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Murray. I appreciate that.

I also want to touch upon—and this is what I'm noticing now, and not just in Newfoundland but across the country—that there are a lot of really good groups out there that do river management, watershed management, and a lot of the hours they put into it are volunteer.

To what extent does this budget provide some relief for them in providing expertise in river management? Where are we for them? Because they do a great service across this country. A lot of these inland river groups are basically strapped for volunteers. They're finding it very hard to cope, and they do provide a lot in regard to conservation and enforcement.

[Kevin Stringer]

Especially with salmon, there are literally tens of thousands of individuals who do work. There are a number of ways we engage them. In terms of budget, in last year's budget there was the Atlantic salmon endowment fund of $30 million. That has now been established and there's a group working on it.

Second, we have a broad stakeholder engagement process on the management of fisheries. Next Friday in Halifax we'll have a gathering or about 100 or 150 people who will show up to talk about the Atlantic salmon fishery writ large. They come from all five provinces on the east coast. We will talk about the plans and the state of play. It's also an opportunity for those stakeholders to talk to us about some of the work they're doing.

The Atlantic salmon endowment fund was specifically set up to help these groups, engage with these groups, and provide them with some support. There's no question that those groups do a huge amount of work.

There are two other things I'd point to. I mentioned the wild Atlantic salmon policy last week when I was here. That's one we've been working on for some time. It will be on the agenda next week. We will be engaging in a stakeholder process on that. That's largely a stakeholder-driven process about how we manage salmon and include those groups in the management of salmon. We have five provinces, four regions, different sectors of our department, and all of these groups. That's an attempt to pull that stuff together.

The Pacific wild salmon policy has been in place for three years, I think. It has worked very well. On the other thing we do on the west coast that we don't do as much on the east coast, we have the SEF facilities, the salmon enhancement facilities, where we work with stakeholder groups on enhancement and other elements of salmon management.

On the final thing we do with these groups--and it's in the budget every year--we have an awards ceremony. We don't have an awards ceremony for commercial fisheries, but for the recreational fisheries we have an award ceremony every year. The minister presents awards. There's a bunch of stakeholders who are involved in the decision. It's not DFO that makes a decision about who gets that award; it's stakeholder groups, and each province has one. It's an opportunity for the minister and the department to recognize those people and continue to work with them.

[Larry Murray]

The whole issue of volunteers and how important they are to this department is huge. We don't do enough, but we try. It is appropriate to mention the National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee volunteers, who this committee saw--about 5,000 of them do great work. We try to support them as best we can. There's the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary, with 5,000 people who bring 1,500 vessels to the table for search and rescue. So the volunteer input to what we try to do as a department--both DFO and coast guard--is a huge contribution.

As you heard from the harbour authorities, we've increased their insurance coverage recently. We've done the same thing with the Coast Guard Auxiliary, and it's now $4.9 million. We could probably have a more fulsome look across the estimates and try to give you some kind of handle. But I'd like to underline how essential the volunteers are in our department's mandate.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

When it comes to enforcement, when you fine poachers in inland rivers maybe some of that money could be circulated back to the local community or the voluntary organizations. I always thought that would be a good way to go, but that doesn't exist. Is that correct?

[Larry Murray]

That's correct. We share your view on how to move money out of some of these things. It's a bit of a challenge, and as part of our various review processes we'll be trying to work on some of that.

The recreational licence scenario on the west coast around stamps for the Pacific Salmon Foundation achieves that. It's very popular and a good way to go, because volunteers see that the money they're investing goes back into what they're out there supporting. To the extent we can do that kind of thing, it's a good idea.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

You have a minute and twenty seconds, and we're going to keep you on time.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

In that case I'd like to switch gears for just a moment. We have a potentially drastic situation in Europe, when it comes to seal products. We haven't had any word from the Department of Foreign Affairs as to how they're going to handle the banning of seal imports. It's all based on morality, let's face it. We have five or six countries lining up to ban them, Belgium being the lastest. Despite the fact the EU said they would not look into banning seal imports, if all these member countries of the EU decide to ban them individually, wouldn't they be compelled to do much the same and harmonize that law?

I just don't think that Foreign Affairs is really taking this issue with the WTO seriously. I think this is in contradiction of the WTO. Is our conservation ambassador working on this issue? Where is DFO in relation to Foreign Affairs?

[Larry Murray]

There is indeed a great deal of energy going into this issue. I'd be remiss if I didn't pass on the minister's thanks to this committee for the focus you've put on it and the personal time and attention you've paid to it. That has made a difference with the European parliamentarians, among others. He's very grateful for that.

On the specific issue you raise, there have been meetings as recently as this week. In fairness to Foreign Affairs, I think they are fully engaged. Certainly Ambassador Sullivan has been very heavily engaged. The Premier of Nunavut has been engaged and met with the minister. Adding that presence to some of the recent trips to Europe was extremely useful. But the minister shares your concerns that we need to keep working on this, because it's not an easy issue. We're not necessarily up against scientific facts; we're up against perceptions, or whatever.

Kevin, you might want to say something.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Maybe you can pick that up on the next question that's asked on this, because it's Mr. Blais' time right now.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I would like to say that the lovely voice I hear in my ear would seem to be one year older than it was yesterday. Yesterday was Claudia's birthday. So, happy birthday, Claudia.

I would also like to expand on the seal issue, but first of all I have a short question on the small craft harbours divestiture program. Are there any funds left in it? If so, how much?

[Cal Hegge, Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources and Corporate Services, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

There is no specific divestiture program, but as you know, we spend approximately $1.5 million per year to that end. We would need $80 million to dispose of all the harbours we would like to divest ourselves of.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

From my understanding, until we have a massive investment in the maintenance of small craft harbours, it would be hard to imagine that a divestiture program exists at the same time. I have the impression that this money is intended, in the end, to rid ourselves of the wharfs in question. Was the $1.5 million-annual investment spent in 2006-07? Was the cost higher or lower?

[Cal Hegge]

The amount I mentioned is about right. We spend $1.5 million annually, but we obviously need more than that.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

In any case, you know that we will have the opportunity to come back to this issue over the next weeks and months.

As far as seals are concerned, I am going to follow along the same lines as Scott, because there is something that concerns me. Our recommendations are superb and very interesting, our study was a very good one, but I have the impression that the government's response in the next few months will be relatively vague. What interests me is the reality, what is happening right now, and in a pinch , almost yesterday. In a tangible way, have you budgeted for this issue in particular in your 2007-08 estimates?

[Kevin Stringer]

We've actually done some reallocation within the department in the last year and we'll continue with that in terms of having some people in the department specifically on this issue. We've had managers who work on this.

It is a very difficult issue. A communications group is working on seal issues in Europe and in the United States. There are also issues in the United States. We are also working, as the deputy minister said, with Foreign Affairs Canada and the various missions.

The ambassador, Mr. Sullivan, led a delegation in Europe approximately two months ago. We were accompanied by the Premier of Nunavut, a minister from Newfoundland, fishermen, sealers and representatives of other interested groups. They visited the parliaments and met with journalists from France, Belgium, Germany and other countries. We are doing a lot now. Foreign Affairs Canada is doing a lot of work with us now as well. We shall carry on, because it is a very important issue for us.

Moreover, our markets for seal products are no longer really in Europe, but rather in Asia, in China, in Russia and in Korea.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Unless I am mistaken, there is also the Italian market.