Evidence of meeting #59 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was countries.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew Bol  Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bill Matthews

I'll call the meeting to order pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study on small craft harbours.

I'm filling in for our chair, Mr. Keddy, who has another commitment.

I'd like to welcome our committee members and to welcome our witness this morning, Matthew A. Bol, director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc. Apparently, you did a study a number of years on small craft harbours and infrastructures in other countries. I'd like to welcome you here this morning. We look forward to hearing what you have to say, and we look forward to the question and answer period that follows. I understand you have a statement to give first, sir.

11:05 a.m.

Matthew Bol Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Yes, but I'd first like to thank the committee for inviting me here to talk about the report we produced in 1999 for the small craft harbours program. I think you were given a summary. It's entitled Small Craft Harbours in Foreign Countries.

At the time we did the study I was both fortunately the lead consultant and a partner with a firm called Sypher:Mueller. We had done some other port work and maritime-related work over the previous 20 years, so we were successful in winning the proposal. Our firm at that time, Sypher, was more concentrated on airports and aviation, and since that time we probably have even focused more on airports and aviation. Our firm has been purchased by a very large U.S. organization called Jacobs, and therefore you see a name change from the original report.

In the consulting business we produce a lot of reports, and unfortunately many of them end up on shelves and gather some dust, so it was a very pleasant surprise that I received a call and was asked to be a witness here. I hope today I can be of some assistance to the members of the committee.

It was suggested that I give a brief summary of our report, and I'll try to do that.

The objectives of the report were threefold. One was to compare small craft harbours in Canada with those in foreign countries, and we ended up with I think nine foreign countries and three U.S. states. When we said “comparison”, we meant what was the importance of the small craft harbours to the economy of that country; a profile of the small craft harbours in terms of size and number; ownership; who was conducting or responsible for management, operations, and repairs; fees and charges; and of course, very important to any small craft harbour, capital budgeting and funding.

The second objective was to determine the importance of government support to all these harbours.

And then the third objective was to discover or identify some of the new ideas for the small craft harbours program from what we learned from doing this review.

We conducted the review through a collection and a review of relevant documentation either provided by the department or that we found on sources like the Internet, etc. Then we contacted various transportation departments and fisheries departments in the countries concerned and made a lot of phone calls until we found the right people, and we had long interviews by telephone with them.

So those were the objectives and that's how we conducted the study. In our report we identified a number of themes that emerged, and I'll quickly discuss those themes.

The first one is that ownership of small fishing harbours is at the local level. That came through in all of the countries, I think, except for perhaps one, which was Australia. So local ownership was the first theme.

The second theme was that central governments continue to fund small but strategically significant harbours. That's a lot of language in one sentence. Small fishing harbours in other countries are, by Canadian standards, relatively large, much larger than the average size of 45 boats per fishing harbour in Canada. By “strategically” we meant that the governments were supporting, fostering, funding ports and harbours that not only had fishing, but also they wanted to promote export and trade, whether that was in oil or goods. They wanted to support tourism, for example, in Maine. So that was a second theme: central governments continue to fund small but strategically significant harbours.

Then a third theme: central governments are not involved in small harbours. In many cases, after pressing very hard, the people we talked to might not even know how many small craft harbours there were in a country. They just weren't that concerned with them, and that was true for Norway, Denmark, Sweden, New Zealand, and Australia, which was a bit surprising.

Getting back to this theme, the fourth point is that the small but strategically significant harbours are much larger. They're fewer in number, and they're much more multi-purpose than small craft harbours in Canada.

The fifth theme is that local governments and authorities have a high degree of self-reliance to operate and manage their facilities. They're at least expected to cover operating repair costs and contribute to or pay for all of the capital developments.

Sixth, where central governments do get involved with harbours they work in a number of partnership arrangements with local governments and authorities. It could be dredging, for instance, in the United States; capital planning and development systems, and Iceland stands out there as a very good one; revolving funds, which I think were in Maine; collection of taxes; and of course grant funds.

Those were the themes.

On my last notes, we were asked to look at lessons learned or ideas for DFO. We concluded that there was no single approach or right answer to funding and management. We looked across the spectrum of the countries. They all have a different history, a different geography, different demographics, definitely a different culture. There is also a difference in the relative importance of the harbours to their economy and in the role of the central government in their economy.

Some approaches clearly won't work in Canada, such as privatization, which we saw in Australia and I believe New Zealand. We suggested a third point here that you need long-term assurance for third-party investors. So that would be long-term leases as compared to the small craft harbour programs, where they had very short-term leases. I think it was five years at the time; it may have changed.

We suggested that DFO consider some innovative financing, direct loans, loan guarantees, revolving funds. We also thought, based on a model of airports--we were very familiar with small airports and large airports--that we would encourage local municipalities if they're not already doing so to provide administration and operational support services.

The sixth point is not a very large one, but it was true in the U.K. There should be a mechanism to ensure the board of directors is openly accountable and effective in providing management.

That concludes my summary. I hope I can answer any questions you might have.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bill Matthews

Thank you very much for your opening remarks. We appreciate that.

We'll now go to our first round of questioning, and we begin with Mr. Cuzner.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thanks very much. I appreciate your presentation.

When you embarked on the study, were your consultations more with the federal officials in those countries or did you actually deal with some small craft harbour authorities?

11:15 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

That's a good question. We did both. We talked with officials in various central government departments, sometimes state-type departments. We also tried to get a harbour master in one or two harbours in each country, to understand how fees were collected and how a port was managed and operated. We went to local level harbour masters and the official level within a government department.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I can fully appreciate the different variables here from country to country. Is there one that's closest to what we're doing here in Canada now? Is there one that best reflects what we're doing here in Canada?

11:15 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

I was impressed, yes, with Iceland, because there the central government is involved in funding. The trouble is they have a lot fewer harbours than we do. I thought they had a very good mechanism for planning and allocating funds. I was quite impressed that the federal government in Iceland provided capital funding--but up to a certain percentage. I think it was a sliding scale.

In countries that I expected to be similar to Canada, like Norway and Sweden, because they have long coastlines, and they do have lots of small fishing harbours and wharves and moorings, the central government isn't involved.

Maine is more recreationally oriented. Oregon is more recreational/trade oriented. Japan is hard to get any information from at all.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Yes, I could well imagine.

Really, the fleets and their operation would be completely different from our fleets here, I would think.

One of our greatest concerns with our small craft harbours, and with continuing to try to maintain harbours, is the harshness of the climate. Ice is devastating to a lot of exposed harbours. Would Iceland be more aligned with Canada than the other countries, as far as conditions go?

11:15 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

I would think their climate is rather harsh, yes. Iceland would have a harsh climate. Norway would have issues of icing and snow. To some degree, Denmark, on its west coast, made strategic harbours, and only a few harbours to serve fishing and other multi-purposes because of the harsh westerlies coming in from the Atlantic. I can't really speak for Australia. New Zealand, no, I don't think they have our kind of climate.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

No, I wouldn't think so.

The other thing would be just the amount of coast we have I think would be far greater than most of the countries you looked at as well.

11:15 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

Most countries, yes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

So these are all very significant factors, where you can see that Canada wouldn't.... I can see where we can take some aspects of what they do in other countries, and best practices, and apply them in our situation, but just because of the harshness of the climate, the amount of coastal exposure we have, they would stand out from many of the other countries as well, I would think.

11:15 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

I would agree with that.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

You talked about privatization, and you rule that out. Perhaps you could just elaborate on that.

11:15 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

Privatization has many meanings to many people. Privatization, where I see the private sector owning and operating a port...it may or may not have issued shares. I think we only saw that in New Zealand and Australia, and it was for large, multi-purpose ports that could make a go of it. We're talking equivalent to the ports of Halifax and Vancouver. It was hard in our report to try to distinguish between large versus small versus fishing versus multi-purpose. We had to dig to find the right people to talk to and eventually get down to small craft harbours.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

You mentioned in your presentation some of the smaller harbours that were locally owned. Would they still be eligible to receive federal moneys for project development or dredging?

11:20 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

In most countries?

11:20 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

Again, I said in most countries the federal government is not involved in small craft harbours in any way.

Let me just try to find out from my notes. If you can just excuse me, it's been a while since I wrote this report.

The central governments are not involved in very small harbours, so that's harbours of 20 or less. Where they are involved are in the more strategic harbours, which are fewer, larger. Their governments are involved, and I think there are nine governments involved in those more strategic ports. There's a central government role in most of them.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Have you seen where, in some countries, either provinces or even municipal units might be involved in the operation of harbours?

11:20 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

Yes. I think what we saw in the report is that the management and ownership was at the local level, and the local level was typically a municipality.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

As opposed to a harbour authority.

11:20 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

Yes, but there was a mixture. When I said “local level”, it was local harbour authorities in some countries, it was the municipalities in other countries, and I think in some organizations it was a state type of organization. When I say “state”, I mean equivalent of a province.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

With your presentation here and your report, I don't know if we're going to do justice to this. You have so much information compiled here. We look forward to reading the report. I haven't read it yet.

It's been discussed at committee here that this committee could possibly travel abroad to try to get some sense of this. You've obviously done some work and you've done that.

The report was tabled in 1999, was it?

11:20 a.m.

Director, Jacobs Consultancy Canada Inc.

Matthew Bol

Yes, 1999.