Fisheries Committee on March 26th, 2009

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Has that been done?

[Claire Dansereau]

That is what I just said. I do it myself.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

It is something that you are just setting up.

I have another more general question. France wants to expand its fishing zone around Saint-Pierre and Miquelon, and that would affect us directly. How do we start international negotiations like that? What role do you play? How do we reach an understanding on that?

[Claire Dansereau]

The stakes are high there, so we would begin by working closely with the Department of Foreign Affairs. We would be providing technical support. They need us to give them information. We also have our own resource people. That is how we go about it.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Have you had a meeting about it?

[Claire Dansereau]

We have discussed it with the Department of Foreign Affairs.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

A few years ago, a Spanish vessel was boarded because it was fishing on the open seas in our zone. I followed the case for some time. There were political consequences. Even “Captain Canada“ was involved.

How was that resolved?

[Claire Dansereau]

I am going to ask Mr. Bevan to answer that question, Mr. Chair.

[David Bevan]

There have been major changes in the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization, NAFO. We found a way to improve conservation and regulatory measures in NAFO zones.

Unfortunately, after a few years, we came up against some problems, but having met with NAFO, we found another way to solve them. We increased the number of inspections in NAFO zones. We also tightened the requirements on trawlers fishing in that zone, and that has produced good results. Fish stocks are increasing and there are no longer any problems. What caused the problems in 1995 has been fixed. At the moment, everything is going well in NAFO zones.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Because you became involved, Illegal fishing has decreased.

[David Bevan]

Yes, it has decreased a lot. Because of other programs, such as the meetings Ms. Ridgeway has attended, we have found a way to close ports to trawlers that fish illegally and to put a stop to all assistance to fishing of that kind. So, at present, there are not many problems in the Northwest Atlantic.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much again, Mr. Chairman.

I have a question, out of ignorance. A few years ago some officials from Nova Scotia and DFO went to New Zealand and talked about the ITQ systems. Madam Ridgeway, do the systems of management of fisheries--ITQs, IVQs, and so on--fall into your portfolios in any way? We have a common property resource. New Zealand and Iceland have ITQ systems in that regard. Does that fall under your jurisdiction at all, in that regard?

[Lorraine Ridgeway]

To the extent that we're trying to build a common understanding about how different kinds of tools could be applied and what they might give you, yes. For instance, in the OECD we undertook a very interesting study—I was chairing that committee at the time—to try to demystify the question of market-based measures, because the term is often used and it's explained as being the answer to getting better fisheries management. But it's always, or often, associated with only a particular kind of tool. What we did in that work was to work with all the committee--which was all of the OECD countries. We looked at the literature. We took apart the different characteristics of different measures. We mapped the fisheries management of different OECD countries against that to show that it's the characteristics that matter in changed behaviour; it isn't necessarily the instrument.

What we found was that some countries that said they actually had a law against some of these measures actually had the purest forms. They didn't know them. They called them something different. We mapped those collections of characteristics against different kinds of behaviour to show that there's a whole range of things that you can do that are not all the way to a tradeable quota--it might be a community quota, or maybe even a Japanese-type co-op--that can give you some of those same outcomes, but they could be mainstreamed into the kind of culture and values of a particular country.

We felt that was a contribution to understanding how those tools can help, but the pickup of those is for the managers to do. What we were doing was providing some of the analysis that would help demystify some of those concepts.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

First of all, Deputy Minister, as you're now the Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, and your mother raised you and three others on a secretary's salary, she must have done one hell of a job for you. Give her our very best.

What we hear from people like Dr. Boris Worm is that fish stocks are on a rapid decline. We heard Wendy Watson-Wright the other day talk about the carbonization of our oceans and the fact that the crustaceans now are having difficulty getting calcium for their shells. We hear about overfishing. We hear about unregulated fishing. We hear about all kinds of nasty things happening out there. Then we hear at world trade talks that our employment insurance or our work on wharves may be considered subsidies on all of this.

I'll go back to my colleague, Mr. Kamp, who was talking about the value for it. We've heard what you said, but I guess there are no yardsticks. You indicated that sometimes those measurements can take years. If you do something now, you plant a seed, you may get the reward five years from now, but then most of us have changed and we've all moved on to other things.

I'm concerned about what we hear in the public realm from other sectors. We heard the other day from former senior officials, Mr. Applebaum and others, regarding their serious reservations about the NAFO discussions. So we have all these experts--scientists and other officials--saying that things aren't all that great out there and that we're not doing all that well. Yet we hear that part of your role, Madam Ridgeway, is to go out and reach compromises and consensus, and that hopefully we can get value for the money and be successful on some of this.

In my mind, and I guess for Canadian fishermen and their families, we need to hear a lot more of the successes and of where we're going forward, not necessarily backward, when we hear from various officials out there.

[Claire Dansereau]

Mr. Chair, one of the examples that was just raised is a useful one. I know the committee was very concerned last year with some of the proposals that were being made regarding subsidies, including even small craft harbours, and that some of the international fora...and it was in the Doha discussions, and the president's text...was of great concern to the committee. Had Canada, through Lori's presence and the presence of others, not been there, we would be in a different situation today. The fact that there is no language at this point is in fact a success, because the language that was being presented was language that was very negative to Canadians and to the right to fish and the right for various subsidies, as we call them.

The successes are there. We are Canadians; we don't boast about them. That's a little bit a part of the problem. It's not part of what we do to boast, but I do think there is evidence that there are successes.

As I said in my opening remarks, if we hadn't been there, things would be much worse for us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you. The time is up.

Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I want to thank you again for coming.

For a government that came in on the wings of accountability in 2006, you offer an opportunity not just to answer questions on the hot seat, but to promote best practices across a much broader domain that we may even be thinking about here. Thank you for coming.

Perhaps we'll start talking about the Dansereau model: would your mother approve it?

I'd ask you this. When you do book travel, do you ever ask whoever does that in your office about alternatives--in other words, is there a cheaper way to do it, Sam or Sally or whoever?

[Claire Dansereau]

Thank you.

If I may answer, I must say, partly in answer to a previous question, that the minister has asked me to look at this. The minister was concerned with some of what was heard and she wants to be assured that what we are doing in fact makes sense and that the value is well spent. That is, in part, another one of the factors that triggered me to look at all of this.

We need to be fair. On the international work, as we said earlier, I know it's hard for people to understand that it's not a luxury. It appears to be a luxury and it appears that travelling business class is a luxury, but very often we will be travelling through the night. To get to London now, you travel through the night. To get to Prague, you arrive in London, spend some time at the airport, and then go off to Prague that same day. Sometimes we will do that. We'll be in Europe for two days and then turn around and come back because we can't miss more time at the office.

We have a certain responsibility for the health and well-being of the civil servants as well, and to put them in a position of great physical difficulty in those kinds of circumstances is I think why the Treasury Board is the place where that kind of conversation happened regarding the overall guidelines. It was to make sure that Canadians get best value for money, but that public servants are treated in a way that is careful with regard to their health and well-being.

Given all of that, as I said earlier, we are now seeking alternative ways, such as using our upgrade vouchers and those kinds of things when we travel. There are very few alternatives to go to Europe, other than by plane, so....

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

As a suggestion, there's something we've started in our office. When we do find a cheaper way, we're keeping a record, just for me and my staff. Every time we save some bucks for the taxpayer, it's a little hurrah, and we feel like we've done our thing. It may sound trivial, but it's an idea.

[Claire Dansereau]

No, it's very true.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

In that vein, is there a budget? When you travel, do you say, okay, we have a budget, and then we have to measure to see if we're under, at, or above budget?

[Claire Dansereau]

All travel, as I said, is pre-approved, Mr. Chair, and approved post-return. There is a preliminary or approximate budget that is established for the trip and approved by the manager, and then the trip is done within that travel allowance.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Are some proposals to travel turned down because it's just too expensive?

[Claire Dansereau]

Mr. Chair, I will ask Ms. Huard to answer that question. She clearly wants to.