Evidence of meeting #14 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bobby Jenkins  Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Donald Johnston  President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Jim Jenkins  Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Linus Bungay  Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.
Danny Arsenault  Vice-President, Prince County Fishermen's Association

2:40 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

Probably something in the vicinity of 75% of our product comes from P.E.I. during the spring season. We would likely sell a lot of the products we get from Newfoundland, for example, into different product types, because the lobster there has a bigger-sized claw and is not as well suited for the live trade; it's better for production. We would take some of it, but very little of any other lobsters would be processed.

2:40 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS

The reason I'm asking this is that if I'm understanding how inventory...and I won't ask any details about it; I know this is a sensitive topic. The inventory issue is not impacted by purchasing from other jurisdictions but is an issue unto itself. Is that correct?

2:45 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

Yes, that's pretty much true.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS

The rest has pretty well been covered, Mr. Chair.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

There are three minutes left.

Mr. Calkins, or Mr. Allen, or whoever wishes.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Thank you for coming here today.

The question I have for you is, how much money do you have to make per lobster, roughly, in order to maintain profitability for your company?

2:45 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

That would be very difficult to say. There are different types of lobster, and it's a very complicated calculation to do.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Can you give us any indication of what it would be?

2:45 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

I wouldn't want to make any statement as to what that number would be. It's dependent on the size of the lobster, and where sold, and so on.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Allen.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

From the Island perspective, is there enough processing capability on the Island, or is it a function that there's not enough storage capacity to even things out during the year? And are the challenges you have with the dwindling labour supply a function of additional requirements, such as food safety and other types of standards that have to be met, or are there new requirements for workers? Or is it just a challenge to get a worker, period?

2:45 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

It's certainly a challenge to get workers. In 2008 we had 100 foreign workers who came from Russia and China. It's been very difficult this year just to get any LMOs, which are needed to get foreign workers. That process this year, I would suggest to you, has been delayed by anywhere from four to six weeks. I think it's going to be a tremendous challenge for us to get foreign workers to start processing on May 1. That's something that's been different from other years.

The other thing that's happening on the labour force issue is that traditionally we've always had 150 to 175 Newfoundlanders come over. With the demographics in Newfoundland, a lot of them are able to retire now or are getting out of the seafood industry, so those numbers have fallen to probably 75 to 100 in the last year, about half of what we would normally get from Newfoundland. In P.E.I., it's always been a challenge to get people in rural areas. We've undertaken such things as busing them from Charlottetown. We've done quite a few things.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

My colleague Mr. Stoffer has a final question. I'll just ask it, because he tends to be quite lengthy in his questions. He was just wondering about value-added and what you do with the shells you have left over from your processing.

2:45 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

I'm glad you asked about value-added. It's truly a topic we could talk about for a long time.

I mentioned high-pressure processing in my report. That's probably the newest technology that exists in the lobster business.

Going back to Mr. Byrne's question about CCFI, one of the things we've been very successful at doing, with the support of CCFI and the vet college and the culinary institute here, is building markets for value-added high-pressure products. We compete with the live trade. We believe that our product, under high-pressure processing, whether of a whole lobster or the extracted meat, can compete very well with the live trade. That's the kind of support we would get from CCFI, to prove the science behind the technology and basically make scientific statements that our product is able to compete. So there is a value-added aspect.

Then there are the meats. I just attended a week of visits to England and France, where our product was put under the test by French chefs, who are very high-value customers. They said that the high-pressure lobster meat is probably the best lobster they've ever worked with. So there are a lot of value-added options.

We also mentioned the value-added option of taking the other lobster parts and making more of them. We've had many discussions at our factory; we think there are processes that can bring the value up. We believe we will do that over the next year to two years.

We've had many discussions concerning shell products with different companies in P.E.I. with regard to doing something with the shell. At present, what we do with it is give it, basically, to the farmers to put on their fields.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Bungay.

Thank you on behalf of the committee for being here today to provide the committee with some comments and advice. We appreciate the time you've taken, especially on such short notice.

We'll take a short break again, as we change presenters. Thank you.

3 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, everyone.

We have with us today, from Prince County Fishermen's Association, Mr. Danny Arsenault. The president, Shelton Barlow, has not been able to join him today, so Mr. Jenkins is going to join Mr. Arsenault.

Mr. Arsenault, you have probably heard already that we give 10 minutes for presentations, and then members of each of the parties have time allotted to them to ask questions. You will hear a little beep or noise throughout, and it usually indicates that the time has expired. If you hear that, don't be too alarmed. As I said earlier, I generally cut the members off, but not so much the witnesses.

In any event, Mr. Arsenault and Mr. Jenkins, if you would, please proceed at this time.

March 31st, 2009 / 3 p.m.

Danny Arsenault Vice-President, Prince County Fishermen's Association

Good afternoon, everyone.

Before I start, I would like to give you a little history of area 25. In the late seventies—I heard someone talk about it earlier—there was a buyout of licences. Quite a few were bought up in our area. In the eighties we started seeing a good rise in the fishing. In the mid-eighties, area 25 was enjoying high catch rates. By 1989, for daily catches in the first week of the season we were put on a quota of 1,100 pounds per day at our co-op. They just couldn't handle the amount that was coming in.

In 1990, DFO put a size increase on the industry for area 25—the only area, and it was the first time it had ever been done. We weren't even consulted. It was just a week before the season that we were called to a meeting and told that our size was being increased.

This kept on for five or six years. We kept having an increase every year—again, as I said, the only area that had. During this time, each year our catches were dropping.

In our southern part of area 25, down in the strait—we all know the problems we have there—the catches were dropping off drastically. Then we ended up with a twofold problem, because as the catches were dropping in the south, we were being hit with size increases, and every year we were losing, dropping on our catches.

People were selling out in the south, and someone was buying the gears and bringing them north. In one year, we had as many as 13 gears move to the north. This went on for quite a few years.

In the late eighties we had 17 fishers. Just to give you an idea about where I'm talking about, we're mostly right up at the very north end of the district along the area 24 line. We have 250 to 252 fishermen in area 25. Today there are about 210 in the top third of the zone. This is where all the gears are. It has created a lot of problems.

With the three harbours at the north end we have seen increases, as I said, from 17 in one area to 53 there now. The next harbour up, which would be Skinners Pond, has an increase; I think 10 or 12 have moved into that area.

Pressure on the stock is very severe, and DFO stood by and allowed all this concentration into one area to happen. We kept asking for something to be done, but they turned a blind eye to it. Now we constantly hear from them that they want us to reduce our effort. Each year they put new measures on us. This year we were given a new 10-year plan, which according to our fishermen would probably put us right out of business.

We are fishing a different, smaller.... We have a window lobster. Everybody else is at 115 to 129 grams. We are at 114 grams, and everything above that we throw away, of the female lobsters—we put them all back. Still that isn't enough. They are asking us to cut traps and to reduce our seasons. We are having a hard time to make a living as it is.

This is why we stated that we were not in favour of doing anything with this 10-point plan. We had New Brunswick fishermen agree with us to go with the same thing. We're not interested in doing any of these things until we have a buyout and reduce the number of fishermen.

Everything is talked about on the basis of effort. You can't have any better effort of reduction than to take 100% of a fisherman out of the fishery. He's gone out of the fishery. All these measures they are taking are band-aids.

We believe that in area 25 we have two big problems. In the south, the catches continue to really drop off. We believe there are environmental problems. Studies have been going on in the last two years. We still don't have an answer as to what the problem is, but the stocks are disappearing—and not only lobster: every stock in the strait is disappearing.

What this has done, as I said earlier, is bring all the gears to the north. Now we have a problem in the north, where we have too many fishers taking too few fish. It must be a really good stock, because it would be gone by now if it weren't, because of the way it has been fished with the increases.

We would like to see some licences bought out here to help those who remain to be successful once again and be paying taxes and contributing more to the economy.

Area 25 had a buyout going a couple of years ago, made possible by crab quota. We bought out nine licences and we shelved two for a year. This program received praise all across the country, and we believe we could successfully run it again if we were given funds. The only area, I guess, that had a successful buyout was ours. Pretty well every penny that was put into it was used to buy licences, with a small bit for administration. We believe it's our only way to ever fix our industry: to buy out some. A third of the licences have to go.

Before we started this buyout, we were concerned about the gears moving to different areas. We went after DFO and were successful in getting, finally, a port freeze put in place, because we felt that if we buy eight or ten gears out of an area and somebody brings in eight or ten more, we haven't accomplished much. It's something we have brought up with DFO before.

And I think it's something that has to be looked at in areas. You can't have effort going all into one part of a zone; that's bound to cause problems. If we ever have it balanced out again, it has to be looked at to make sure the problem never comes back.

That's about all I have to say on this right now.

As far as protection is concerned, we'd certainly like to have more protection. We've seen in the last year or two a little bit more funding, and we could certainly use more, because everything helps. Our fishermen today are just hanging on, and if DFO makes any more cuts to us, we're all going to be out of business. We can't survive it. We see removing some licences as our only hope, and they have to go immediately.

Thank you.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Jenkins.

3:05 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Jim Jenkins

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just to complement what Danny has said, what you have heard are the words of a hard-working, honest fisherman who makes his living from the front of the boat—not from an office, not from investments; he does it by hard work and through an honest day's labour. He and his colleagues are all in the same sort of situation in their area.

I would like to commend their organization, along with our colleagues here, Francis Morrissey and Craig Avery, in that these people a number of years ago had a warden program, which was a protection program under which the fishermen worked in cooperation with the federal government. It worked well. Now, because of various issues in the 1990s, when we had large recessions and all the tightening of the belts, if you will, and the chipping away of budgets, and we had to pay down the debt, and all those sorts of things, which are necessary, these people lost their program and haven't had an opportunity to regain it. In fact, Danny's colleagues in the Western Gulf Fishermen's Association even make financial contributions to the department to maintain some extra warden protection in their area.

So I'd like to commend them. I was with the department at the time. I worked in fisheries management for a good many years, worked on the native programs, development, licensing, and various other types of things. It was these types of ideas, generated by fishermen—good, honest, solid ideas—and brought up not out of a concept of trying to take money from the government, but of working cooperatively with them to resolve a problem.... I commend them on their efforts over the years.

As to their lobster buyback program, I think they've done an excellent job. I've looked at their program in quite some depth, and I'd like to see your committee support not only their efforts but the efforts of all the various locals on P.E.I. to reduce the number of fishermen. I think everybody wins when we do that, and having the fishermen be part of the solution is going to make resolving the problem that much easier.

I commend Danny on his dedication and his work in the fishery as well.

3:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins.

Mr. MacAulay.

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much, Danny and Jim. I'm pleased to have you here.

Danny, you mentioned retirement. Something I have promoted somewhat and intend to continue to promote is a retirement package.

Also, before we get into that, I'd like you to talk a bit about their request to reduce and to take other measures. From what I understand, you're barely surviving in the fishery. Governments are great to ask you to do things, sometimes without fully understanding the impact on somebody that, as Jim said, stands at the front of the boat and really does the work and has to pay the bills. I'd like you to elaborate a bit on just exactly what they are asking you to do and how it's impossible to do it, and with that, how important the retirement program would be through the federal government.

You told me there were seven or nine retired and two shelved. Do you agree that they should be shelved? I understand a licence that's shelved is something you can take off the shelf. What I've been promoting is to make sure there is nothing on the shelf anywhere and to make sure that when they're gone, they are gone. Because if you don't do that—I think you have indicated in your statement too—if it's giving people help to buy the boats then they just shift and put the pressure on the area...if there is good fishing, everybody goes to that area. Unless you take licences out of the system, you cannot reduce the effort.

Would that be a fair evaluation?

3:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Prince County Fishermen's Association

Danny Arsenault

To answer your question about the shelving, the reason we did the shelving was that we had a couple of fishermen come to us who were looking to go elsewhere to work for a year. We didn't have enough money to buy them out, but they offered us so much if we'd take them out for a year. It was a bit of money that we had left. It was taking effort out of the fishery and we agreed to do it, but I'd sooner see them out altogether, yes. That was the only reason we shelved them. We didn't have the money to buy.

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Would it be your opinion that if we don't have a buyout program and if there is any help to transfer licences, that's not any help at all because it doesn't reduce the effort? Would you agree? You have to have something to reduce the effort in the fishery.

3:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Prince County Fishermen's Association

Danny Arsenault

Exactly, yes.

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

I just want to get this on the record, so that when they review, it will be there.