Evidence of meeting #14 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bobby Jenkins  Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Donald Johnston  President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Jim Jenkins  Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Linus Bungay  Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.
Danny Arsenault  Vice-President, Prince County Fishermen's Association

1:45 p.m.

President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Donald Johnston

Just to mention a few things on the conservation part of the buyback, if we take out the 65 fleets to start with, there's an environment impact. Each boat burns 20 to 30 gallons a day; anything they may be dispersing into the water is gone. Concerning the 50 traps, there are 402 fishermen in our area here, so right there you're going to save at least an hour a day. You're looking at three or four gallons less fuel for each vessel every day for 50 days, and looking at less bait, which makes it easier on the other gaspereau fishery.

So there is a fairly big environmental impact too: the fuel, and saving one-quarter to one-third of your bait per day. It makes quite a difference in the gaspereau fishery, which is dwindling. We use a lot of it here, and it would save that fishery somewhat.

So there are lots of savings to look at. As for the income of a fisherman, since we all have 300 traps now, if you put out 50 fewer, you have 50 spares right off the bat, which saves you money right off the bat.

So there are some good outcomes from lowering by 50 and getting rid of the other 65.

1:50 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Bobby Jenkins

Another thing, Mike, is that our fishermen were adamant that before they gave up 50 traps we had to see something coming from the province and the federal government. They were adamant about that.

1:50 p.m.

President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Donald Johnston

The thing that really baffled us and the fishermen was that our report was shelved. We totally did it on our own; we were not asked to do it by anybody, but totally did it with industry. When it ended up with DFO, our proposal was shelved. I couldn't believe it.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay, that's helpful.

The last question I want to ask is about access to credit. We talked about exhausting the credit limits. Mr. Calkins mentioned before the idea of getting some of the financial institutions in at some point in time to talk a little bit about this.

How are the banks reacting? I don't have much fishing in my riding, but I have a lot of forestry and agriculture. I know how the banks are reacting to them. If they'll even give them credit, it's at around three and four points above prime, and they've increased the risk profile. It's a real challenge. What are the types of things you're seeing in the reaction of the banks?

The second part of it is, what types of things, from a financing perspective, would be helpful for us to be thinking about on the credit side?

1:50 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Bobby Jenkins

I'm glad you brought that up. One of the things we found ourselves dealing with a few years back, when we were getting $5.25 and $6.25 for lobsters.... We were still having problems, and one of the things we did as an association—the PEIFA was adamant in going after this, and it took a lot of hard work from a lot of individuals—was go after that 4% loan from the province for our fishers who were in trouble in areas 25 and 26A. We finally got that. It has helped a lot. I've had a lot of fishermen tell me the only thing that saved them was that 4%--consolidating their debt and getting it under a 4% loan.

Various people who work at banks and credit unions told some of the fishers to go to the P.E.I. lending authority and to try to get in there, because that was a better place for them than the banks or the credit unions. That's what a lot of them ended up doing.

That being said, that program is over now. Something from the federal government along those lines would work. The criteria don't have to be the same; they could be different. The plan could cover the whole island; it could cover the whole Atlantic coast, for that matter. Every time we pick up the newspaper or turn on the TV, we see a stimulus package for this outfit or that outfit or something else. The fishery is the same: it's a business, and there are people suffering in that business. They need it.

So I'm really glad you brought this up, Mr. Allen.

1:50 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Jim Jenkins

If I might add to that, I would be hopeful that the federal and provincial governments—again, irrespective of party lines and those sorts of things—would work together to look at this. If you lent money out at prime, what you'd be doing is investing in the future, particularly for people taking over new gear, or younger people coming into the fishery. You'd be investing new blood into that fishery.

I would recommend you seriously consider approaching the provinces and maybe share the cost of interest on that borrowing, and look at loans to new entrepreneurs in the line of 10 to 15 years. To go for such a large investment in the fishery and to ask for a loan, say, of five years is just not feasible in the lobster industry. You're taking of a $200,000, $300,000, or $400,000 investment. Therefore, if you could get that loan at prime—or less than prime would be even better—what you will do is allow young people to establish themselves in the industry. They will then generate tax revenue as they mature in the industry, and that money will come back to Canada in the form of resources.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, gentlemen.

1:50 p.m.

President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Donald Johnston

I approached two banks on this issue, as I was wondering how they were lending money to the fishermen lately. Both banks informed me they'd give me 75% of whatever the boat was worth. So if you were buying a fleet and your boat is worth $10,000, you'd have to come up with $192,500 yourself. So the banks aren't there; they aren't there at all.

Furthermore, the processors used to help on unregistered loans and stuff for fisherman, and with this crisis that has totally stopped. There's absolutely nothing--no purchase orders, no money, no nothing--from the packers anymore. It has totally stopped.

So it's quite a blow to the fishery. I've fished for 28 years. I can remember my packer going to a new captain and saying, this man is to get whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and how much he wants. Now, on a day last fall I was looking for $200, and he said, “There's no money here.”

1:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much.

On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank all of you for coming today and meeting with us.

If we could, let's take a short break while we set up for the next group.

Thank you.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

We will begin.

I'd like to thank Mr. Bungay for joining us this afternoon.

Order, please, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. MacAulay, you may want to take your meeting outside so that we can begin ours.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

You don't want me to get any votes.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

You've got enough votes, Lawrence.

Mr. Bungay, once again I'd like to thank you for joining us this afternoon. I appreciate your coming on short notice. Basically we'll give you 10 minutes to make a presentation, and then the members will have an opportunity to ask you questions. Those questions will be timed questions, and the responses will be timed. If you hear beeping throughout the meeting--you've probably heard it already--that's the time indication.

Mr. Bungay, I'll let you proceed. Thank you.

March 31st, 2009 / 2:05 p.m.

Linus Bungay Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

First of all, Mr. Chairman, let me apologize on behalf of Mr. Sullivan, who was supposed to make this presentation today. Unfortunately, the weather was not cooperative.

Good evening, members of the committee. My name is Linus Bungay, and I am the operations manager for Ocean Choice International on Prince Edward Island. May I say for the record that Ocean Choice management is very pleased the committee is taking an interest in learning about and helping to solve some of the systemic problems and issues affecting the lobster industry of Atlantic Canada and Prince Edward Island, in particular.

Many of these issues have plagued us for some time. They have become much more difficult because of the global economic crisis, because the seafood industry now operates on a global basis. My company has its head offices in St. John's, Newfoundland. Ocean Choice International came to Prince Edward Island five years ago when we bought the assets of Polar Foods from the government of the province. Since then we have invested over $11 million in technology and other improvements to our facility in Souris at the eastern end of the province.

We have not asked for, nor have we received, any government funding for our initial purchase or in the improvements we have made. We are now the largest processor of lobster on Prince Edward Island and the second largest private employer in the province. Our annual payroll to staff and production workers averages about $8 million to $9 million a year. Our operation is unionized.The United Food and Commercial Workers represent our workers. Our production workers are covered by a contract, receiving health benefits and vacation pay.

We buy lobster from more than 300 fishermen sailing from P.E.l. harbours. As well, we buy lobster from fishermen in Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Maine, all told, about 10 to 13 million pounds depending on the year.

We put more lobster products on the international market each year than any other processor in Atlantic Canada. We market our own product, with sales offices in Asia, Europe, and North America. Our processing season extends from May to February. We market our products to more than 20 countries around the world, with our most important market in the United States. When you add in our local expenditures for supplies and the rentals and living expenses paid by over 200 imported workers from other provinces and foreign countries, you get some idea of the economic contribution we make to the town of Souris, to eastern P.E.l., and to the provincial economy.

Lobster processors are truly the middle men in the production and marketing chain that begins with fishermen landing their catch on the wharf and ends with sales of lobster products around the globe. The current market for lobster products can best be described as unstable and extremely price sensitive. The lobster processor is caught between those global market realities and increasing production costs, a dwindling labour supply, and the need for fair returns to fishers. Overriding those pressures is the need to preserve and maintain a sustainable resource. We are sailing into stormy seas. To quote one independent seafood industry analyst, "The seafood industry is about to see much more fallout from the credit crunch.” To use a word that is coming into use in discussing the global economic upheaval, this will be a reset year for the lobster industry in Atlantic Canada.

Traditionally the lobster fisherman has hauled his 300 traps six days of the week during his season. He catches as many legal size lobsters as he can and sells them on the wharf of his home harbour for as much as he can get for his catch to one or another of the buyers representing various companies. There are issues about consistent high quality on the shore that must be sorted out. We believe there should be more quality consistency and that a better grading system should be installed. The fisherman's work is done after the product is landed. The work of the processor then begins.

Bear in mind that about 75% of the lobsters landed on P.E.l. are canner size, weighing up to one pound. There is no other buyer for these animals other than the processors. They are too small for the live market in the restaurant trade. The industry has always operated on an assumption that every fisherman will have an immediate market for all his catch. That notion is based on the presumption that processors will buy every fish they can and process what they cannot immediately sell for inventory. That inventory, in turn, is financed by lines of credit used to pay for the raw product. It is what is known in other industries as bridge financing.

You are all familiar with what has happened to credit with banks and other sources. Credit is harder to get and in many cases is simply not available if it is to be used to finance inventory.

John Sackton writes in his daily online Seafood News that “...there has been a tremendous de-leveraging of bank and insurance company exposure to credit risk”. He is talking here about the recent reluctance of banks and insurers to accept receivables as collateral against risk. It puts enormous pressure on processors to make quick sales, as companies try to bring in enough cash dollars to cover expenses. It also puts downward pressure on the amount of lobster being bought by processors, as well as the prices being paid by them for their raw product.

Our industry needs to be viable, so it can bring more technical innovation to the industry. At Ocean Choice, we have invested in high-pressure processing technology. It subjects lobster to pressure, which separates claw and knuckle meat from the hard shell without breaking up the meat. There are companies with the expertise required to develop machinery that can go one step further with pressure technology, to break and shake meat from the claw in a single operation. Development of this innovation would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for the prototype. That is a huge investment for a single processing company to make and bear the full cost. Those who followed would get the benefit of such an expenditure.

Human resources is another key issue: the dwindling population in rural areas, creating a scarcity of older workers, and the reluctance of many better-educated young people to replace older workers retiring from the industry. We bring in more than 200 workers each year from Newfoundland and Labrador and from the other Atlantic provinces and foreign workers from Russia, China, and this year from Thailand as well. And we will still have difficulty getting all the workers we need.

The industry needs investment in research and development to come up with new products to meet changing consumer demands and to assist in using all parts of the lobster. We appreciate the investment governments are making in marketing Atlantic Canadian lobster. It is a start, but it is not the answer to our systemic problems.

Lobster has always been portrayed as a luxury, a discretionary food, and has been priced accordingly. That discretionary market has suffered severe impacts, especially in the United States, where lobster has been taken off many restaurant menus and where restaurant chains are closing outlets or advertising complete meals under $10.

In reality, there are several niche markets, not just one. We need to be able to serve them all with our value-added products, from McDonald's to up-scale restaurants to take-home gourmet meals from the supermarket. There is a huge market for a lobster dinner priced under $10—if anybody can figure out how to prepare one and still make a profit.

We need a sustainable resource to make a sustainable industry that will provide a living for fishermen and their families and the production workers in our facility and preserve a shoreline society with thriving communities. We believe it can be done and that we can have a profitable, prosperous industry.

To achieve that, we need to rethink the industry. We must improve quality. We must be consistent with our quality standards. We need more innovation, more research, and more research and development. We must look into the viability of longer seasons with fewer fishermen making a better living fishing more traps. We should strive for an industry requiring fewer workers who make better pay. A sustainable industry must also be a profitable industry. We have too many under-financed companies now.

These are some of the matters that Ocean Choice, as one processor, has taken under consideration. I'm prepared to answer any questions that you might have.

2:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Bungay.

Mr. Byrne.

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Andrews.

Mr. Bungay, with such a large company, you obviously have a major stake and you have a fair bit of market power within Prince Edward Island itself. One of the questions I have is this. I am aware that you've changed the relationship the company has with individual fishermen and that you now buy strictly through brokers. Is that correct?

Your presentation talked a little bit about lowering costs. How can the introduction of a middleman actually lower costs, and why wouldn't you deal directly with the fishermen themselves and eliminate that cost?

2:15 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

If you look at our business model, what you will see over the last probably three to five years is a reduction in how much product we buy at each buying station. Over time, our amount of buy has dwindled probably by more than half of the buy. Therefore, our cost has risen to double what we would normally have to pay.

From our perspective, it is cheaper to allow a middleman to do his business and do what he does well and for us to not interfere with that process, based on the fact that we're not getting very much volume in some cases anymore. We're basically buying fish from fishermen for two or three days, or half-catches. Our volume has dwindled, so cost per unit is what we're basically looking at.

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Do you think that provides a net benefit to the fishermen themselves, because there has been a significant amount of concentration in the P.E.I. processing sector?

One would think that an increased concentration of processors would lead to concerns by some that the marketplace is being altered—and altered significantly—in favour of large buyers. What would be your reaction to that?

2:15 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

I don't think it's being biased in any way, shape, or form, in the way of larger companies. I think one of the things you see in this business is that there are many, many smaller operations, and those operations can operate basically on a cash deal. But they have to turn over their inventory, which affects my business as a larger company.

Can I extract all of the value out of the lobster at some point in time? No. That's based on the fact that sometimes other smaller processors, who don't have cash and don't have financing in place, have to move their inventory because they need the cash to buy for next week and the week after that.

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I'm just going to push my questioning a little bit.

You talked about research and development and the need for new products. There's some bad news. Ocean Choice International has been involved with an organization called the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation, and that organization just lost its funding. It's the major research and development partnering or brokering group, other than the Marine Institute.

What impact, if any, would the closure of the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation have on your ability to extract greater value out of the lobster market?

2:15 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

It's going to have a major effect. Not only do they participate in the research and development of new products, but they've also been the driver behind the Atlantic lobster round table. They've chaired it. They've brought all the information together for it, and they've been a tremendous part of making the lobster operation in Atlantic Canada more transparent and open. Any time we've asked them to run projects—if we have any catch available to do projects with—I've found that their work has been tremendous. And they have helped us to develop some new products.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

So your company has actually made cash contributions to the work of the CCFI.

I want to share my time because my colleague has an important question about the inventories, but let me ask you this. Are you saying to us on the committee that the very organization that actually helped create and generate support for the Atlantic round table, which is currently under way and is so critical to the future of the lobster industry, is the very organization that's losing its funding from the government?

2:20 p.m.

Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.

Linus Bungay

Even at this crucial time we're losing that organization. It's a tremendous organization. The timing couldn't be more wrong. I guess someone would have to show me when it could be more wrong.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I'll switch to my colleague.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you for coming in.

We've heard a lot of talk this morning, and throughout our journey, about the inventory on hand right now. I have three questions.

Could you give us some idea, in your particular circumstance, how much inventory you have on hand in pounds, not dollars, and what it would be normal for you to have on hand at this time of year, so we can put it in perspective? Obviously you're going to carry inventory. What inventory would you have on hand normally this time of year, and what do you have now?

More importantly, what impact is this going to have on the start of this lobster season—having that much inventory on hand? What's the plan for dealing with that?