Evidence of meeting #28 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ice.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Executive Director, Canadian Sealers Association
They're short of protein, that's exactly right, sir.
What they're doing is looking at investing in processing plants here in Newfoundland and Labrador and doing the pelts, and the oil, and the meat, and the byproducts. They're looking at the whole thing and not just one part of it.
There is interest here in putting infrastructure in place to get the product they want.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
That is good.
You mentioned that at the height of the seal industry, there were five processing plants in Newfoundland and Labrador. How many months or weeks of the year did they run?
Executive Director, Canadian Sealers Association
A couple of them would have been working virtually 12 months of the year.
Between 1995 and 2006 two of the plants would have been working virtually maybe 10 months of the year. In some cases they would have two and three shifts on and they'd be processing the pelts, as I said, most of the year.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Mr. Pinhorn, you put a lot of things on the record here that I consider quite valuable and important, and it's what the country needs to hear, too. It's sad what has happened and what a number of people, do-gooders, can do to a very important industry. I think if you took anybody into where they butcher animals, you'd certainly have a lot of trouble with that. It's sad and if this is not stopped, how far is it going to go?
For my last question, I'd just like you to elaborate. I know you have mentioned to me the monument that's going to be erected, and there is a sense of pride and respect there. I'd just like you to mention that on the record.
Executive Director, Canadian Sealers Association
The hundredth anniversary of the disaster was in March. Both of them happened the same year.
Pardon me?
Executive Director, Canadian Sealers Association
The SS Newfoundland lost 74 or 75 people. They all froze to death on the ice.
Then the SS Southern Cross, with I believe 154 aboard, sank. The word is that the pound boards in the vessel were not in good condition and may have shifted. She was fully loaded and on her way across the southern shore and rolled over and sank, and she lost 154 people. Altogether I think there were 251 who were lost in one year in 1914.
John Crosbie is the honorary chairman of the group. He and some business people have a committee in place, of which I'm a part. Altogether they've raised upwards of $3 million. They're going to erect a memorial, and the name of every person who was lost in the sealing industry is going to be on that memorial, so there are going to be....
There's the story of Mr. Crewe and his son. His son went to the ice, and he was 16. The year before that Mr. Crewe had said he'd never go out there again. When his wife heard that the 16-year-old was going sealing, she turned to John Crewe and said, you've got to go out with him to look after him while he's out there in the boat and sealing. The young fellow froze to death in his father's arms. That's the story written by Cassie Brown in her book, Death on the Ice.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston
Thank you very much, Mr. Pinhorn.
At this time we'll take a brief recess until we change so the officials can take their seats at the table.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston
I'm ready to call this meeting back to order.
I'd like to thank our guests for being very patient. I know you've been with us several times when we've tried to get this opportunity to hear from you.
Mr. Swerdfager, I know you are no stranger to this committee, so at this point I'd ask, if you have any opening comments, to please proceed.
Trevor Swerdfager Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Hello everyone.
As you know, I am Trevor Swerdfager, Assistant Deputy Minister of Ecosystems and Fisheries Management—Operations.
On behalf of our minister, the Honourable Gail Shea, I would like to thank the members of the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak today about this private member's bill, which is Bill C-555.
I have the pleasure of being accompanied by three of my fisheries officer colleagues, Mr. Jean-François Sylvestre et Mr. Yves Richard, both from the Quebec region, and Mr. Randy Jenkins, who works at central administration.
As you certainly know, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Conservation and Protection Program is responsible for enforcing the Fisheries Act, the Endangered Species Act, and more generally, federal regulations which apply to natural resources.
Given that our staff includes more than 600 active fisheries officers, they maintain a strong presence nationally. They often represent the department and even the government in many small communities from coast to coast.
As the tragic events that occurred in Moncton last week reminded us, people responsible for upholding the law, be it to ensure our safety or to protect our national heritage, accept tasks and face dangers that are truly remarkable, even if we often forget it.
I am therefore very pleased and proud to be here today with three of our best fisheries officers, not only to talk about this bill, but also to highlight the importance of this aspect of operations and our department's mandate.
Turning to the matter at hand, I'll also take just a very small amount of your time with a further couple of preliminary remarks. Simply put, in the fisheries management domain, particularly in the seal harvest area, the department really has two main preoccupations: the conservation of the resource and the safety of the people who are engaged in it. As my minister has noted elsewhere, our department strongly believes that Bill C-555 will advance us toward both of these goals.
As you know, the bill proposes a change to the marine mammal regulations to alter the minimum distance from 1/2 nautical mile to one nautical mile that an unlicensed observer can approach a person fishing for seals. Although, as you've heard, violations of this particular provision are infrequent, when they do occur and when people are determined to interfere with a lawful harvest activity, they put at risk the life of sealers, enforcement officers like those beside me today, and coast guard vessel crews.
The officers with me today have first-hand experience with these risks and would be happy to describe them to you should your questions for us happen to go there. We've also tabled with the committee a number of pictures that might illustrate some of the operational issues, and if the chairman wished, he could pass those around for people to have a look at.
Turning to the bill itself, we do feel that the changes it proposes, while modest in nature, would better equip us to manage access to the seal fishery and to better enforce or protect the safety not only of seal harvesters but also of our enforcement personnel.
As the committee will know, a vessel can cover half a mile in a matter of minutes, leaving enforcement personnel very little time to react to its movements. The new provision would give officers additional time to respond to incursions within the observation limits and Coast Guard vessels time to better manoeuvre into position. It would also afford us additional time to advise harvesters of the potential for danger and allow them to return to the safety of their vessels or to land, as the case may be. We feel that the safety of the harvesters and the managers of the fishery would be improved as a result.
Make no mistake about it, the department fully supports the right of people to observe the seal harvest. There is no debate, on our part, on that issue at all. Indeed, our regulations clearly allow for observers to be licensed. Applicants for licences are subject to a very stringent screening process to ensure that individuals are not intent on disrupting the harvest activity.
Compliance with this particular regulatory provision is very high. In our view, it is working quite well. We need to ensure that proper regulatory measures are in place to properly control those intent on disrupting lawful seal fishing activities. We feel this bill helps to do so.
As I said, we have plenty of expertise sitting around the table here in terms of past exercises, particularly those who I know may be of some interest with respect to the Farley Mowat and other incidents in the past and going forward.
We'd be very happy to take any questions you might have today.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston
Thank you very much, Mr. Swerdfager.
Mr. Chisholm, we'll start off with you.
NDP
Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you very much.
Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing before us today.
I wanted to ask if you could tell me what kind of resources you deploy during the harvest, how many square nautical miles you cover, and that kind of stuff. Could you give me some sense of the level of responsibility? We heard how many fishermen are involved, but what is the area, and how many vessels, airplanes, helicopters, and officers do you have?
Jean-François Sylvestre Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We have a Type 1200 icebreaker, which is usually reserved for monitoring the seal hunt. It is a large vessel. On board, it has a team made up of six to ten fisheries officers and a supervisor. A helicopter is permanently based on it, whereas one or two others are ground-based. I will also raise the matter of monitoring within the Gulf, which is closer to my field of expertise and experience.
The location that fisheries officers are deployed to depends on the seals' movement. By movement, I mean the largest proportion of the seal population. That's where the hunters are found. Usually, hunters are almost all in the same location, which is in the Gulf's interior, depending on the seals' migration.
The teams of fisheries officers are deployed by helicopter when the ice conditions are satisfactory or safe. Fisheries officers proceed with inspections on board fishing and hunting vessels to ensure that seal hunt regulations are obeyed. They also monitor both licensed and unlicensed observers who want to move in closer than the one-half nautical mile zone. That is what we are here to talk about today.
The hunt can take different proportions. As has been observed in the last few years, and someone mentioned it earlier, the market is not very lucrative and costs are high for fishers and hunters who want to reach the seals' location. Over the last few years, the scope of the hunt has not been as broad as it once was.
It must also be considered that, during the three years preceding the year that just ended, ice conditions were not favourable. In that context, monitoring was not as important as it might have been between 2005 and 2008, when ice conditions were good, seals were available and the market was flourishing.
Fisheries and Oceans Canada developed a national monitoring plan for the seal hunt. It is a business plan that establishes the staff and equipment required. If the state of the ice does not allow helicopters to land, the ships on the icebreaker are used.
NDP
Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you very much.
I was interested in our earlier witness from the Canadian Sealers Association. He talked about the licensed observers creating a problem. They are restricted to 10 metres, and he said he's aware of many problems arising as a result of that and that maybe that distance should be extended. I was interested in that because my understanding is that there is quite a bit of scrutiny with those licenses, in terms of the whole question of disrupting the seal hunt.
I wonder if any of you could comment on that situation and the fact that he identified that as a problem. Could you comment on that, please?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'll offer one quick comment, and then perhaps my colleagues will chime in from a more operational perspective.
I want to emphasize that at this point the 10-metre distance is one that was established through a process of negotiation in an out-of-court settlement. It's been in place for some time, and at this point at least, the department has no intention whatsoever of looking at that. It's not part of the bill. It's not part of the policy approach. It's not something we're intent on changing.
Having said that, you might want to talk about what operational issues we encounter with that from time to time.
Do you want to add a bit?
Yves Richard Chief, Regulations, Quebec, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
In fact, the ten-metre rule has been in force for a few years already. That is as close as licensed seal hunt observers may come to hunters. The license allows us to manage and meet these people. They are the subject of investigations, through which we can make sure that their stated goal is not to disrupt the seal hunt.
That being said, when talking about monitoring someone who is hunting, a distance of 10 metres is still close. I've already provided you with explanations about that, but I don't know if you want more details.
We've received complaints from some hunters; they say that it prevented them from hunting. We have made enquiries about it and collected some statements, but they are very hard to prove. These people are often in helicopters, and it is possible to allege that their manoeuvrers were intended to land close to where the hunt was occurring. It is very hard to put forward arguments or to assemble files in a way that can be defended in court.
My colleague might want to add something about that.
NDP
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I just want to specify that the number of observation licences is limited. People who request a licence are interviewed. Their background or police record is checked. Nevertheless, the number of people selected each day who have a licence is limited. The goal is to avoid having as many observers as hunters on site. For regulation purposes, all of these people are met, including helicopter pilots.
NDP
Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Okay, thank you.
I'm going to ask my colleague to ask a question, but I appreciate what you've said about DFO recognizing the fact that observers have a right to observe the harvest and that it is something you respect and work to regulate to ensure the safety of the harvest and the observers.
My colleague would like to ask a question.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Sylvestre, I've read your statement. As I am the critic for my party for aboriginal affairs, I hope that you will forgive me if I sometimes take shortcuts.
If I've understood correctly, should Bill C-555 be passed and implemented, coercive power would be exerted first and foremost by your organization. For my part, I am a native of Manicouagan, whose shores cover thousands of kilometres. In communities along the lower North Shore, like Ekuanitshit, people still use seals for food.
I see that the situation still opens the door to an interaction. On the ground, we see that people can approach each other on the ice. In Atshuk, it is still relatively easy to reach these locations. Because there is ice, it's possible to get close and see seals with the naked eye.
Your organization would therefore exert power to uphold the parameters of Bill C-555.
You mentioned staff. Remind me of the number.
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We have staff in Quebec that cover the seal hunt.
You no doubt already know that the Gulf of St. Lawrence becomes a hunter's playground during the seal hunting season. If the seals move north to the Magdalen Islands, sealers from Newfoundland, Quebec, Prince Edward Island and the Maritimes will go there.
We therefore assemble conservation and protection staff from other provinces or regions, and we adjust the number based on the number of hunters present on site. In fact, we will not mobilize a boat with 20 people on it if only two boats come to the hunting ground, as was the case in the last few years, given that there was not a market for this product.
Regardless, when it comes to staff, we are able to respond to these situations.