Fisheries Committee on May 26th, 2015

[J.W. Bird]

None of us at this table were on the task force, but we all were involved in one way or another in helping to promote the call for the task force. We think the task force is a very good response towards uncovering the needs and making the strong and right recommendations to the minister. We're waiting with great hope that some of the recommendations will result in early action to address solutions that are required, some of which I described to your colleague in the last few minutes.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Yes. I was very strongly supportive of the recommendation to increase the striped bass take. I think we could have gone further on that one because I agree with the comment made earlier that unnatural “predation” is a big factor in the Atlantic salmon decline.

The Miramichi Salmon Association has conducted a number of projects under our recreational fisheries conservation partnerships program. I've spoken to some of you personally about that. Could you describe some of the projects you've done under the RFCPP? Have they been effective?

[Mark Hambrook]

Yes, very much so. This has been a great program for us. I think we've received almost $150,000 over the last three years, which has generated another $150,000 in our spending, to accomplish some of the projects. Some of those have focused on habitat issues.

We are going into a period of global warming. We're getting warmer water events. What we're using this money for is to create cold water sanctuaries where salmon can go to survive, during periods of hot water conditions. We're also removing obstructions to spawning.

This has been a very good program. It's not free; it's 50% cost-shared. We have to come up with the other 50%. But it's programs like this that allow work to happen. This is the kind of program we need.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I'm very pleased to hear that. Of course, as you know, in our last budget another $30 million was added to the RFCPP, making a total of $55 million for the conservation of habitats that are important to the recreational fishery. I think it's going to end up with roughly 800 projects across the country when all is said and done. It's truly remarkable, and it's a testimony to the conservation ethic of the angling community, which you should all be very proud of.

In terms of freshwater habitats for salmon, what more could we do to enhance, conserve, and protect freshwater Atlantic salmon habitats?

[David LeBlanc]

I can speak on behalf of the Restigouche. We have concerns about the peak flows related to forest activities. There are models that exist that we can calculate this. It's called the equivalent cut area calculation, which will demonstrate the percentage impact on the watershed by the forestry...so to relocate the blocks and not to overpass the 50% equivalent cuts in the watershed, because that's what we see in the Restigouche system. Ice runs are earlier in the spring and the bigger ice is doing more damage to the banks. In the summer, it's the opposite; it's really dry, so there is no water. There's a big difference between peak flows and low water periods. That's something that should be looked at, that is, the entire impact of the forestry on the river systems.

[Mark Hambrook]

If I could add to that, one of the programs we've identified is to do a thermal image of our whole Miramichi watershed. We could identify all of the cold water inputs and, with the cooperation of the forestry companies, protect those cold water inputs by increasing the buffer zones around them and, in cases where we can do some enhancement work, improve those cold water flows into the river.

The habitat is good and our watersheds are forested land, underdeveloped. I mean, we have good watersheds, except that we can always make small improvements, making better access to spawning grounds through removal of obstructions and protecting the fish while they're there.

[David LeBlanc]

Maybe I can add something on the recreational protection program. In the Restigouche we had a project last year that allowed us to reduce the silt load from potato farms in the Saint-Quentin area by 120 tonnes per year with all the work that was done, based on LIDAR technology. This is one of the projects we did last year.

Siltation is still an issue, and that's why we were approved for another project for this year, with a major saw mill in Saint-Quentin, to do some drainage work to reduce the impact of the woodyard on the Five Finger Brook. That's another example of projects that were funded by the DFO program.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

That's most impressive.

Regarding freshwater habitats for Atlantic salmon, it strikes me that you can work on the problems that exist in fresh water and remediate over time. We actually know what we're doing in the freshwater areas. To me it seems like the problems are largely from the estuary into the open ocean in terms of returning Atlantic salmon.

Is that a fair conclusion for me to draw, based on everything that we seem to have learned, that the estuary and the open ocean are where the problems really lie?

[Mark Hambrook]

I think that's been a conclusion of Fisheries and Oceans and most of the non-governmental agencies, that that's where the problem lies. Really, for a river organization such as ours, going out into the Atlantic is a stretch from what our mandate is. Our mandate is our river. We are participating in some of that research because it's so essential that it has to be done to find these answers.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Right. I think the open ocean problems are truly fiendish in their complexity.

In terms of Greenland, we had a discussion earlier, and my strong view is that Canada has more rights to these fish than other countries, given that we produce the fish and own the areas where these fish are born and raised.

Would you share that conclusion?

[J.W. Bird]

I think that everybody agrees that the Greenland fishery is an intercepting fishery. All the fish that Greenlanders catch are products of other countries. Yet, it is very difficult to deny them a fishery of some subsistence nature. The key is to try to keep the level of that subsistence fishery at, say, 20 or 30 tonnes, where it has sort of been agreed upon at NAFO, and where it has now bloomed to what we think is 50 or 60 tonnes.

The difficulty in negotiating with Greenland—and it's a diplomatic process, not one that we can pursue in a military or any aggressive way—is that our own consumption of wild Atlantic salmon is significant, such as our Labrador fishery, our Quebec fishery, and our overfishing in the Maritimes in the past. Greenland is very quick to point to Canada and its continuing consumption of wild salmon as a foil in our negotiations to reduce their quotas. It's something that we all have to continue to work at. Maybe some day there will be sanctions involved. Maybe there will be a trade like shrimp for salmon or some more substantive diplomatic process that will bring about answers and solutions.

[David LeBlanc]

If I could something concerning this topic, I was in Quebec City two weeks ago attending the advisory committee chaired by Mr. Greg Roach. There I became aware of why Quebec had not reduced its tag allocation on Quebec licences, which is still seven salmon per licence. We were told that it's because of the 1922 agreement with Canada. The Province of Quebec cannot decide by itself to reduce the number of tags. The red tape caused by that agreement postponed the decision to reduce them, even though most of the associations and major federations in Quebec have been supportive of reducing the number of tags, which would have perhaps given Greenlanders or other provinces a better view concerning Quebec fisheries. It was not possible because of that agreement. The recommendation to the advisory committee was to put it on a fast track so Quebec could reduce the number of tags for 2016.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome the witnesses.

I want to particularly welcome—I suppose I could call you the honourable John Bird but nobody would understand who it was. When you come from Atlantic Canada—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It hasn't changed much up here, just a few different faces really. It's still the same problem.

Bud, I would like you to elaborate a bit. I'm quite interested in what's going on in Greenland. I'm thinking about what goes on in the tuna fishery too. Bluefin tuna are fished in different ways around the world. You know the way we fish them here, rod and reel, and we're quite restricted and all that.

I understand quite well that Greenland has a right, but they're probably taking two or three times what their right is. There is some way, and I know you touched a bit on other methods for governments to take, but quite often—I want to be careful what I say to you—governments, all governments, do not put enough emphasis on how important it is to deal with these issues. It's not fair at all; Greenland takes probably up to 70 tonnes when they should be taking about 20 tonnes.

I would like you to elaborate on that.

[J.W. Bird]

First of all, hello, Lawrence. I remember you well from my days in Ottawa. It's nice to see you again.

I'm going to be very careful as well, because as a member of the national delegation I'm really only an advisor to the head of our delegation, who frequently doesn't take much advice from me. It's just a very frustrating problem to get Greenland, first of all, to admit to the fact that controls are necessary. Also, it's a little easy to understand, given their complex geography, the difficulty they have in exercising control, because they're dealing with hundreds of miles of shoreline and very small fishing villages and so on, where it's almost impossible for the government to exercise any real control—any real count, let alone control. But I think we're making progress. I think there is a consensus developing that Greenland has to reduce and control its count, so that the figure is in the area of 25 or so tonnes. But so long as they can point at Canada and say we're taking five times that many in Labrador, let's say, or the combination of Labrador and Quebec and elsewhere, we have a pretty tough argument to make. It's just a great frustration to all concerned.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Bud.

Does anybody else have a comment?

Mr. Hambrook, the government now spends about $12 million on salmon activities in the maritime region. It was $24 million back in the early eighties, so that figure would have to be close to $30 million today. I expect you would feel that it's pretty important for the government to step up more with programs and partnerships and whatever needs to take place in order to make sure that we save this Atlantic salmon.

Just looking at the minimum conservation limits and all the stuff that's going on that's really causing a decline in the salmon stocks, something has to be done or we'll not have a salmon fishery at all. Would you agree?

[Mark Hambrook]

I would agree.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Also, Mr. LeBlanc, you were referring to something about tags in Quebec and what they can or cannot do. I'm not sure the committee fully understood, but somebody has to be able to sit down some way. As Mr. Bird and other people have said, we need to be able to indicate to Greenland that we're doing something different on an international scale to make sure that we're able to reduce the take in Greenland. There must be some way, if everybody wants to reduce the number of tags, that we can reduce the number of tags.

Thank you.

[David LeBlanc]

Concerning what I was saying about Quebec and the number of tags, I was kind of caught in the middle in representing an interprovincial watershed. We received an announcement from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for the New Brunswick side of the watershed to implement a full live release of all fish and using a single barbless hook, whereas just after that Quebec announced they would maintain the status quo of seven tags per licence, which can be placed on large salmon or grilse. There's a big difference on the two sides of the river. There is not yet harmonization on the boundary waters, but still this year the New Brunswick river anglers will be asked to put all fish back into the water, while in Quebec they will be allowed to keep seven large salmon. It's a big difference.

As I said, Quebec was probably willing to reduce the number of tags per licence, but because of that 1922 agreement with Canada, they were not able to work solely on this reduction. That's why the Province of Quebec was not able to reduce the number of tags. There needs to be a priority discussion between the federal government and the Province of Quebec to discuss how tag reduction could be implemented for Quebec licence-holders for 2016.

[J.W. Bird]

If may add to that, Mr. Chairman, many people do not understand that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans exercises authority for the Fisheries Act in all provinces except Quebec. I think it's under this 1922 agreement that Quebec has the authority, which is ordinarily held by DFO. For the first time this morning I understand from Mr. LeBlanc that there may be a hitch in that 1922 agreement that requires both governments to agree in making any change to that. As a result, in order to reduce the licence quotas in Quebec, there needs to be federal intervention or participation or collaboration. That's news to me, and surely that is something that can executed.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well I certainly hope so.

Bud, you mentioned the damage that the gill nets do to the salmon. Do you have something to add to that? Do you hope for the elimination of the gill net?

[J.W. Bird]

Well, yes. There are other methods of fishing. Trap nets in particular allow for the [Inaudible]. In a gill net, everything that enters is killed. With a trap net, everything that enters is released, one at a time, through a trap door. So large female spawners can be put back in the river. There's a first nation in Red Bank New Brunswick that employs that practice. For some years now they've been using trap nets instead of gill nets.

Also, we saw an illustration recently from Finland in the Baltic Sea where there is a trap net that works in ocean waters. Outside the rivers, trap nets can be used to catch fish one at a time and moderate the size of the fishery.

So, we have to move in those directions in Labrador, for example.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I just think it's important, Mr. Bird, that we get the differences on the record here. This committee is trying to improve the situation with the recreational fishery across the country, so it's good to have that on the record. I thank you very much.