Evidence of meeting #102 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Philippe Méla  Legislative Clerk
Nicholas Winfield  Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Mark Waddell  Director General, Fisheries and Licence Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Gorazd Ruseski  Senior Director, Aboriginal Program, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Adam Burns  Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

9:40 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Nicholas Winfield

In Bill C-68, there is the introduction of a permit scheme, where the word “permit” is used to define a statutory instrument. The term “permitted” is to refer to the permit scheme, whereas the language that previously read “otherwise permitted” is a bit vague around what it's specifically referencing.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernadette Jordan

Mr. Arnold.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

I would ask the officials, again, if this would eliminate any other possibility for exemptions other than a permit or an authorization. Were there cases where there were exemptions issued before, which weren't under a permit?

9:40 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Nicholas Winfield

The schemes for permitting include the new scheme for permits for projects, but may also include a fisheries licence, for example, which is under the fisheries provisions of the act. That's an example of another instrument found in the act that this would then refer to. It's intended to clarify that, if people are already authorized to do something, they meet the intent of this section of the act.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

So are they authorized to do something under the current licence they have?

9:40 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Nicholas Winfield

Which also deems them—

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

That is covered by authorization or the word “authorized”, correct?

9:40 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Nicholas Winfield

That's correct.

(Amendment agreed to)

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernadette Jordan

We'll turn to CPC-13.

Mr. Arnold.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Madam Chair, we heard from witnesses at committee that work or undertaking in artificial structures was unduly impacted or disallowed with the potential language here. This amendment would provide hydro facilities, for example, the ability to do work in a structure that was not originally intended to be frequented by fish.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernadette Jordan

Now we have PV-9. If PV-9 is adopted, NDP-12 becomes moot as they are identical. Also, if PV-9 is defeated, so is NDP-12 as they are identical.

Ms. May.

9:40 a.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Madam Chair, this amendment proposes a new section that would be found after line 36 on page 20. It doesn't replace existing language; it's new. Proposed subsection 35(2.1) would ensure that any time there was a “harmful alteration, disruption or destruction of fish habitat resulting from the doing of anything that is authorized” by the minister, there would be an offset for the loss of fish habitat.

This bill, I think, does some really innovative things. We get to them later in clause 28 when we look at habitat banking.

However, this proposed subsection 35(2.1) would ensure that there would be a measure every time, so we would offset the loss of habitat. I'll just give the specifics from the amendment, “by, among other things,”—so it's not limited to these—“creating a new fish habitat, increasing the productivity of another fish habitat or maintaining productivity through artificial propagation.” The amendment makes it required of the minister to find, essentially, a habitat substitution or augmentation somewhere else if there is a harmful alteration, disruption, or destruction of fish habitat. In other words, the old HADD provisions would always require a no net loss provision that is consistent with the compensation for loss of fish habitat that's found in the DFO habitat management plan where the concepts of productive capacity and no net loss are well understood. The department has used those concepts for a long time.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernadette Jordan

Mr. Hardie.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

It could be a question for staff.

The word “shall”, of course, requires something to happen, as opposed to “may”, which offers it as an option, but looking at the intention or the spirit of this amendment, is it covered elsewhere in the legislation?

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Nicholas Winfield

It is. The factors that the minister must take into account do refer back to his or her consideration of offset plans and measures to avoid and mitigate impacts to fish and fish habitat. It is a consideration that the minister must make prior to the issuance of an authorization.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Must.

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernadette Jordan

Ms. May.

9:45 a.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

This is just to say, and perhaps Mr. Winfield can clarify if I've misunderstood his interpretation, that there is a difference between saying that there “shall” be no net loss of fish habitat versus saying that the minister “shall consider” whether there should be no net loss of fish habitat. I think that without my amendment, providing no net loss of fish habitat remains at the minister's discretion, but it is a factor that he or she will consider.

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Nicholas Winfield

That's correct.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernadette Jordan

Mr. Donnelly.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

I'm glad we just had that last exchange, Madam Chair, because I think it does point out why this motion would strengthen the bill by adding the word “shall”, as opposed to “shall consider” further down in the bill, and I think the response that Mr. Hardie got identifies that. I certainly support this amendment.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernadette Jordan

Therefore, NDP-12 is also defeated.

Now we have NDP-13. If NDP-13 is adopted, so is NDP-14 as they are consequential.

Mr. Donnelly.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Madam Chair, this amendment ensures that all projects, works, undertakings, and activities that have the potential to result in a HADD, a harmful alteration, disruption, and destruction, of fish habitat should receive an authorization before they proceed. To address the issues of approval efficiency, an automatic approval could be issued for certain classes of projects through an online automated notification or application system that issues standard conditions in a letter of advice. That way, the minister is at least able to track those smaller projects and identify cumulative effects. We heard from many witnesses about how those smaller to mid-size projects are having a big impact on our fishery and fish habitat across the country. This talks about how the minister could have an additional tool to track that.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 22 as amended agreed to on division)

(On clause 23)