Fisheries Committee on Nov. 1st, 2018

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Okay.

I know that the Washington State task force had recommendations as well. Is there anything in the announcement about working with them with regard to their operations? I know that there's been some success in what can happen there.

I'm vice-chair of the Canada-U.S. parliamentary association. We do a lot of work with regard to the Great Lakes, for example. What can you share with us on that? Those are perhaps some of the best practices that we can see.

[Adam Burns]

Canada is closely engaged with Washington State and with the U.S. government around measures related to southern resident killer whales. We have representation on the governor's task force. Our minister, Minister Wilkinson, has met with Governor Inslee of Washington State. It's a very close collaboration. We're continuing to engage at senior levels with officials in the U.S. around these measures and the coordination of activities.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Again, can we expect some joint participation and perhaps some of the funding to extend into that?

[Adam Burns]

For example, there's ongoing scientific collaboration.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes.

[Adam Burns]

A good example is the work that was done around the whale called “J50” as it was sort of chased across the Canada-U.S. border and the coordination that had to occur there just from a permitting perspective to allow interventions to occur, should they be possible.

That work is ongoing. It's a daily activity, I would say, between officials in our Pacific region and the Pacific northwest operations of the U.S. fisheries service, as well as Washington State.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Will there be...?

Again, I live on the Great Lakes, and I guess one of the more effective things we've done is that with the more recent announcements that have taken place there have more communications to and more education for the public. We have new systems whereby the public can actually track the work. A submersible—it's almost like a submarine—goes around doing the work. We can follow it. There's a whole bunch of things in that.

Is there any of that kind of work that's going to be coming with this? Again, I don't want to get into stuff.... I know that I keep referring to the $61 million that was announced, but I'm looking for new things that are going to take place. I think it's important for public engagement, especially for regions like mine. There's a need to understand that the west coast is part of the ecosystems that need to be cared about, just like the Great Lakes in my region are important for the people on the west coast to care about.

There have been new initiatives and some exciting components there. In fact, we partnered with the University of Michigan on a submersible that people can track and follow. Are there some new projects and things that are going to be increasing public awareness and participation in trying to improve things?

[Adam Burns]

One of the things I can point out is that part of the announcement supported the development of a whale report alert system by Ocean Wise that provides real-time information on whale location so vessels can avoid disturbing them. That relates to what you're asking.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Now we will go back to the government side. Mr. Fraser, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Colin Fraser]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'll pass my time to Mr. Casey.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

Mr. Morel, I want to come back to some of the answers you gave earlier around an emergency protection order.

The nature of the question was that it's not a question of “if“ but a matter of “when”. Of course, I don't want you to breach cabinet confidentiality. I prefer that you don't, but in terms of a decision taken by cabinet, one would be the issuance of an emergency protection order. Another would be a decision not to grant an emergency protection order and another would be to implement other measures that wouldn't be an emergency protection order.

Am I right on what may emanate from cabinet around the obligations under SARA?

[Philippe Morel]

In terms of what I explained earlier, I realize the question on if and when was tricky, because the way you explain it is the right way. I told about the access the minister has to make a recommendation. It's not for the minister to decide if there should be an emergency order issued under SARA; it's for cabinet to decide. My answer should have been “if and when”, because it's for cabinet to decide.

The rest is logistics of the Species at Risk Act. It's very precise that the minister needs to make such a recommendation to cabinet.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Okay, thank you.

Also on the subject of clarifying, there's been a line of questions both today and when Ecojustice was here that seemed to suggest that a threat of litigation from Ecojustice was a substantial influence in decisions made by the department. Isn't it right that Ecojustice not only threatened litigation but is currently suing the Government of Canada?

[Philippe Morel]

Yes, that's correct.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

This threat wasn't just a threat. It materialized.

[Philippe Morel]

Yes, but I also said we're not acting based on threats. We're acting on the basis of science, and we're acting when we know these actions are the best actions we can put in place to support the recovery of a species. It's not based on the recommendations that come from any group, citizen, or external science. We base our decisions and recommendations to the minister and to cabinet on the science that is peer-reviewed by DFO.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Okay.

With respect to the North Atlantic right whales, can you offer any commentary on changes in their migration patterns in recent years, and how that has affected the decisions the government and the department have had to make?

[Adam Burns]

I haven't noted yet, but I should note that until a couple of years ago the vast majority of North Atlantic right whales present within the Canadian zone were in the Bay of Fundy. In that area, the department has worked with the Grand Manan Fishermen's Association for a number of years on a mitigation protocol to avoid entanglements with North Atlantic right whales, and this has successfully produced many fishing seasons when whales and fishing gear were both in the water but entanglements weren't occurring.

It's important to note that while I referenced that we've only been at this for the past couple of years, I was referring to work in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The work in the Bay of Fundy has been ongoing for a number of years.

The measures that have been put in place in the Gulf of St. Lawrence were put in place once North Atlantic right whales became an issue in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Prior to that you would occasionally see one or two or what have you, but the concentration of North Atlantic right whales has only been in the Gulf of St. Lawrence for a short period of time, and that's the impetus for why the measures have now been put in place.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I want to—

[The Chair]

I'm sorry, Mr. Casey, but we're out of time.

We probably have about two minutes at most if you have a question.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I want to carry on with the line of questioning from Mr. Casey, because I've talked directly to the people who were involved with the whale research and location research, and they had only started looking for the right whales in the location where they were found in the last two years. They had only started looking in the last two years. They don't know if they were there before or not.

I want to get to a question now.

In the announcement yesterday, there's a statement that speaks to advancing feasibility work on one or more southern resident killer whale sanctuaries within sub-areas of critical habitat the whales use for foraging.

Where will these be and how large will they be?

[Philippe Morel]

We just finished consultation on two new critical habitats. I'll just try to find the exact name of where they are.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You can provide that in writing to the committee.

I want to get to a question from my colleague Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins]

Ms. Gelfand, you've probably presumed from my line of questioning....

I appreciate Mr. Casey bringing some clarification to the issue. I don't know if it's possible, but at some point in time, I would be very curious to see, on behalf of the ratepayers and taxpayers of this country, just how much influence third party organizations sometimes have in influencing policy with the direct connections that they have. I don't know how deep the tentacles of Ecojustice and others go into departments and I'm not blaming DFO at all in any of this; I'd be very curious to see just how much influence they have through the threat of legal action and through the other types of discourse that they have, whether it's Environment Canada or Department of Fisheries and Oceans and so on. I'd be very curious to see what that is.

If that's an idea for you for a future audit, I would like to make sure that the policy-makers at the table here, regardless of their political stripe, are the ones who are dictating what the department officials should be doing.

I want to thank you all for being here today. You're all in a tough spot, and we put you in tough spots, but that's part of a robust democracy, so thank you.