Fisheries Committee on Feb. 13th, 2018

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

My concern is that we had all these reports about the glowing response, and then for the Auditor General's, when you read some of them, it's actually not.

I will give you examples from your report: “Specifically, Canada's oceans are expected to become warmer”, and all that; “increasing risk”, which is I guess a model indication; and, “concerns” around “salmon”. The waters are going to become warmer, yet we've heard from a colleague that her concern is that with cold water—it's not a concern, I think, but likely a good thing—we'll end up with more lobster.

We're getting many mixed reports. Why?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

I think you'll see—I'll turn to my colleague Pierre in a second—that the impacts of climate change are not going to be the exact same across Canada. In some places we'll see changes that will be positive for these ecosystem components, but negative for others. As water warms, we may see species that once weren't in our waters moving into them and also see species that prefer colder or warmer moving elsewhere. It's very difficult for us to say as a department that there's one answer as it relates to climate change and this is what—

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Okay. I only have two and a half minutes.

Then we talk about the long term. My colleague talked about the natural and the human.... Because we've talked a lot about surges, water temperature, and sea levels rising in our three oceans, can you provide—or maybe you have, and I apologize, as I'm just filling in—a graph of the last 100 years? Can you provide us a graph for the last 100 or 150 years, outside of the computer models that you're projecting things to happen on? As you've correctly indicated—I think Ms. Kilpatrick did—sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Can you provide that for this committee so we can see what has actually happened over the last years and decades?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

Just to clarify, that's a graph that provides data, not projections, looking at sea level changes and ocean temperatures.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

It's for all those things that we talked about that you say we have—our sea levels, temperature, surges, and coastal erosion—and what changes in those have happened over the last 150 years.

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

We can certainly provide to the committee a graph that has the data we have as it relates to parameters that we measure, as opposed to other departments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

Mr. Tilson, please, for two and a half minutes.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you.

I appreciate all the things you have said. You've also pointed out that areas in Atlantic Canada, Quebec, Ontario, the west, and British Columbia are all different.

All the issues are different, but there's no question that all of these things are affecting the waters, the wildlife, and the the fish. We know that because we're living it. We're members of Parliament, but we're also citizens, and we realize that it's going on. In Ontario, for example, in cottage country, the water is going up and down like a yo-yo. Sometimes it's really bad, and sometimes it's not.

I appreciate all of your comments. They have been very helpful to the committee. My question is, do you have recommendations acknowledging what Mr. Miller said, which is that there are man-made issues and there are natural issues? The public is going to be asking us, their members of Parliament, what we are going to do and how we are going to solve these problems. Do you have any form of recommendations that may help any of the areas of Canada?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

I have a couple things. I appreciate your comments.

What we have are tools. We have research projects that inform the development of tools that will allow communities, stakeholders, and our own departmental managers to incorporate climate change considerations into their decision-making. I'll give you an example. We have a tool that will help northern communities predict how the sea ice cover in the Arctic Ocean will change over time, so they can look at that when they're planning their future commercial fisheries ventures. That's not the same as recommendations, I acknowledge.

What the department has said we are going to do about climate change is found in our federal sustainable development strategy. We have committed to our own actions around the same types of things in the pan-Canadian framework about reducing greenhouse gas, about being more efficient as we build infrastructure, and about undertaking the research necessary to really inform Canadian decision-making. That's what the pan-Canadian framework recommends, those are the types of actions our department is taking, and they are found in our federal sustainable development strategy.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I appreciate it's a difficult issue and all of us have different areas. I'm from Ontario and my issues are quite different from those in Newfoundland or Nova Scotia or the west.

I've had constituents talk to me about the water going up and down. In many cases it's down, but right now it's up. Next week it could be down.

“What are you going to do about it?” they ask. “You're a member of Parliament, what are you going to do about it?”

We look to you for advice. I appreciate that some of these issues are municipal, provincial, and federal. What should we be saying to people as to what the federal government can do?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

It's difficult for the federal government to say, “This is the silver bullet that will solve issues of climate variability and climate change”. That's why I keep coming back to those same things, around all of us collectively reducing greenhouse gas emissions and being more energy-efficient. We can't provide advice that would say, “Do this one thing and it will change the lake outside your dock”. That's a scale of resolution that we don't have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

We go to Mr. Hardie, for five minutes please, to close out.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Acidification and the impacts of that are interesting. I recall a few decades ago it was acid rain. It was the sulphur dioxide turning into sulphuric acid that was eating away at the stones of the Parliament Buildings and also damaging our lakes, rivers, and streams.

What happened? Where are we with that particular substance now, in the mix of what you're following?

[Dr. Pierre Pepin]

The issue there was the sulphur emissions from power plants, industry, and so on. As a result of the research that was done, largely in freshwater systems and in terrestrial systems, it became clear that these emissions needed to be reduced. The response from industry and governments was to ensure that the products being burned had lower sulphuric levels. So that problem—I don't want to say it went away because it still exists in some areas—was significantly moderated. In terms of the impact on the ocean, hydrogen sulphide is one of the components of ocean acidification, but the main component is the increase in partial pressure of CO2.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Let's talk about CO2. There have been some comments from our colleagues across the way, that there's naturally occurring and there's artificially occurring. If CO2 levels are increasing, where are the natural sources of the increase in CO2?

[Dr. Pierre Pepin]

There are several sources for greenhouse gases. Some of it is natural. There's a large body of it in permafrost in northern areas. There are the products of the digestive systems of most of the cattle and animals that we exploit for our own consumption. In all the climate models, those elements are actually incorporated as part of the natural projections.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

But it would appear, particularly in the case of the animals, that is at least maybe indirectly human driven.

[Dr. Pierre Pepin]

Definitely it's indirectly human driven. In terms of the natural sources, they are far smaller than the burning of fossil fuels and human activities by a factor of probably 10:1, something like that.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

As has been pointed out to you, you have really good marks from the environment commissioner on your efforts. I understand those efforts really spanned from, what, about 2012 through to 2016, 2017?

[Dr. Pierre Pepin]

It's something like that.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That must have then represented a priority, because what we also heard was the capacity of the department to undertake science had been degraded somewhat in that period of time. Was this, then, a priority to do this work, and why did you accept it as a priority?

[Dr. Pierre Pepin]

It was a priority partly because of the need, because of the importance, but it was also an opportunity to make greater use of the observation programs that we had. It forced us to actually bring a number of elements together in terms of data and knowledge and expertise such that, I think, the outcome was greater than the sum of its parts. We actually learned a great deal about how to work together, how to direct our efforts towards issues that are of national and international importance; and it was a synergy. Being one of the people who actually tried to get all the cats to work together, I'm extremely proud of the outcome.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Very good.

In the capacity now to undertake science, are you in better shape?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

We certainly are. We received substantial investments in DFO science, both in budget 2016 and budget 2017. We are extremely fortunate that we've been able to harness those new people and the new technologies and the new partnerships that we've been able to enter into, to apply to this problem, but also to others that are of importance to the department and to the government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, everyone, for being here: Mr. Lennon, Ms. McPherson, Ms. Kilpatrick, and of course, Monsieur Pepin. Merci beaucoup.

That's it for today. We'll see you again on Thursday, colleagues. Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.