Evidence of meeting #86 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was adaptation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Gelfand  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
David Normand  Director, Office of the Auditor General
Arran McPherson  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Oceans Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Donna Jean Kilpatrick  Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Small Craft Harbours, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Pierre Pepin  Senior Research Scientist, Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Keith Lennon  Director, Oceans Science Branch, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

9:25 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Okay. Thank you.

Second, do you actually believe that a government can stop or change natural climate change?

9:25 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I don't think anybody can stop the natural variability of the climate, but again, I'm not the scientist. My job is to look at what the government has said it's going to do—

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

No, no, I'm not talking about what the government has done. I'm talking about—

9:30 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

But that's what I can talk about.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

—natural climate change.

9:30 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I'm sure the government has acknowledged that there is both natural climate change and man-made climate change.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Well, I'm glad to hear you say that, because it actually helps your credibility on it when you say that. I don't believe that any government can stop natural climate change.

Mr. Sopuck, the floor is yours.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Thank you.

Ms. Gelfand, I listened to you very carefully about how you could not comment on policy. You're obviously a devotee of Yes, Minister, because Sir Humphrey said that many times at committees that he was in front of. But you're quite right in that regard.

I want to ask about DFO's adaptation audit. You relate it to fish stocks. You talk about Canada's climate as becoming “warmer and wetter”. I should point out that in prairie Canada, for example, we're having a severely normal winter this year. As you know, with many fish stocks the year-class strength depends on water temperature and water flows. Many of the species—for example, the walleye—do much better when spring water temperatures are higher and there are higher flows.

Has DFO done any analysis of the effect of climate change on commercially and recreationally important fish stocks in Canada?

9:30 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

My understanding, based on our audit, is that the answer would be, yes, they did a full risk assessment. The specifics of individual species would be a question to ask the department.

Again, what did I go in and look at? We went in to see whether or not the department had looked at the entire program, at the full gamut—Coast Guard, wharves, science, fisheries management, species at risk, protected areas—and looked at all their climate risks. They did an analysis in 2005. They redid that analysis in 2012. They also developed a whole series of tools and research projects. Out of all the government departments, five actually looked at climate change from an entire mandate, including their assets.

That is the level we looked at. If you start asking me about specific species, you'll have to ask the department about that. Did they do a risk assessment? That's what we looked at. Was it a good risk assessment? Did it look at their entire program? Did they start adapting? Did they actually start developing tools? That's where this department did a good job, in both those areas—risk assessment and tools.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Sure. It's important, however, when an assessment is done, that a net analysis be done. I'm not arguing for climate change, obviously, although, as Mr. Miller pointed out, climate does change. I mean, any prairie farmer realizes that year-to-year variations can be quite significant. The old-timers back home still remember 1961 as being the driest year they saw in their entire farming career. The agricultural community is acutely sensitive to changes in weather and climate. In prairie Canada, at least, we seem to be entering into a dry cycle, after about 15 years of a wet cycle.

In terms of their audit of facilities, there are a number of inland small craft harbours—for example, on Lake Winnipeg, Lake Winnipegosis, and so on—where there are commercial fisheries. Did their analysis look at inland harbours?

9:30 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I'm pretty sure, yes. I believe the person responsible for inland harbours will be speaking to you right after. My understanding is yes.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Can you comment on what the findings were? I'm not going to be here for the second hour, so I'm kind of curious.

9:30 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I don't have the details of that.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Having looked at the entire DFO analysis—I'll go back to the fish stocks—do you think it is able to prepare the commercial and recreational fishing industries for the expected changes in fish stocks that will occur because of climate change?

9:30 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

It has assessed the risks, and it has developed a series of tools. In our other audit on the fisheries management plans, we made several recommendations to rebuild stocks. I was concerned about whether or not we could have another collapse of a stock. I believe it has already come back to this committee to indicate what it has done in terms of those rebuilding plans, and how it is following up on our recommendations.

My assessment is that DFO has a good handle on the risks associated with climate change, and it is developing the tools to help all its stakeholders deal with it and adapt.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck. We are doing a small craft harbours study. We embarked on it, and we are going to Manitoba. Before you leave, could you pass on some suggestions as to what sites we could visit?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

That's an easy one. I'd be happy to do it.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you very much, sir.

Mrs. Jordan, for five minutes.

February 13th, 2018 / 9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I only have five minutes, and I have many questions. You had mentioned that Canada's climate is becoming warmer, creating significant risks to Canadians and the economy.

When you look at a risk and at the departments that have done a good job, was looking at the impact on the economy a part of the risk assessment, or was there a mitigation assessment?

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

Nineteen different departments were assessed. Each department did its own risk assessment. When I look at the totality of all those, what I did not see was whether they were brought together, so that the centre of government could say there are bigger risks in fish than there are for Health Canada, or there are bigger risks for Parks Canada's assets than for DND. The government did not go to that level.

We have 19 departments, and 14 did not do a very good job. In some cases, they did nothing at all, no risk assessment whatsoever. Some did little bits. Yes, they had assets they were worried about, they had assets over there, certain programs. We consider those to not be a good job. Only five out of the 19 did what we consider to be a good job; therefore, the Government of Canada does not have a good sense of what the risks are to the $66 billion of assets.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

What were the four departments that did a good job?

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I have them in a chart. There were 19, I keep forgetting which one's which. They were Health Canada, Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada, Natural Resources Canada, and Transport Canada.

Environment Canada was the lead. It was the one that developed the adaptation policy framework that said that each department should assess its adaptation risks and its climate change risks. Environment Canada didn't follow its own policy. That's not a good position to be in.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

When you looked at these, what time frame were they given? You mentioned that there's $66 billion in infrastructure assets belonging to the Government of Canada, and I guess that would cover the 19 departments, basically, that you looked at.

It might take a little while to do a full analysis on $66 billion worth of assets, so what's your time frame when you're looking at these reports?

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

Our audit covered the period from June 2010 to June 2017, a seven-year period. The adaptation framework was released in 2011. We started before the adaptation framework, which said that risks must be assessed. It came in during 2011, and we gave them six years.