Fisheries Committee on April 17th, 2018

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

Thank you, Mr. Vincent.

With that, we'll go to Ms. Jordan for five minutes, please.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the officials for being here today.

As you can probably sense from the line of questioning, we're frustrated, because we're hearing two very different things. Where is our middle ground here? Where can we find it? We have fishers who appeared before this committee and said that they were not consulted, that it makes no sense to them why they can't fish, and that if they have a quota, what difference the size of the boat makes.

I know that Ms. Perry said something like might be a gap. I'm sorry, but I'm not understanding how there could be a gap. If you are allowed to fish a certain amount, what difference does it make what size of boat you have?

Besides that, I'm going to go to another question, but I do want to come back to that in terms of how we solve this problem, because it is a problem.

Mr. Waddell, I'm going to ask you this question. Maybe somebody else can chime in if you're the wrong person. We had one of the fishers say that he has a 29-foot 11-inch boat. He goes further out than he used to. He would like a larger boat for safety reasons, yet we had someone from FFAW say that the size of the boat does not matter in terms of safety, that it doesn't matter how far out you go: you can go out in a 29-foot boat and be safe to the 200-mile limit.

Do you agree with that? Do you agree that the size of the boat has no bearing on safety?

[Mark Waddell]

It is one of many factors that weighs into the safety of the vessel. You heard that same testimony from Transport Canada officials and from the TSB itself, which recognizes that it's not just about vessel length. It's about the stability of the vessel, the loading of the vessel, the gear that's on board, the training of the crew, and the weather conditions. There's a suite of factors, in essence, that go into safety at sea.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Going back to my question again, I understand that it's one of many factors, but is a 29-foot boat as safe going out to the 200-mile limit as a 50-foot boat? Would you say yes or no?

[Mark Waddell]

I'm not going to speculate on the circumstances for that particular fishery, I'm afraid.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay. These are some of the things that we're having a challenge with.

Mr. Vincent.

[Patrick Vincent]

I hate to be blunt. We're not safety experts, first and foremost, but we do consult with Transport on numerous issues, and safety would be one of them. I will give you a concrete example of what we did just two weeks ago on two occasions.

First, we were discussing with fishermen an earlier opening of the crab fishery. In Quebec, they want to have crab for Easter. Easter shifts in time from year to year, for some reason. The weather was extremely cold, so we consulted with Transport Canada and Environment Canada about ice in spring. Could it happen if we opened on the 29th or should we wait further down the line?

Just last week, we imposed on fishermen to have a certain length of ropes between the main buoy and the secondary buoy in the crab fishery to avoid ropes being taken by North Atlantic right whales. We imposed a limit of 3.5 fathoms. With the current and everything, the fishermen said it was unsafe. We consulted with Transport, which came back to say they could go up to 6 fathoms, which would be safe, so we did that.

Those are two occasions where we interacted with the fishermen and consulted with Transport on safety issues.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

I believe Ms. Perry wanted to chime in.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay. I have limited time, so I would like to get to my next point.

If we have time, I'll come back to that, Ms. Perry.

You've maybe been following the testimony. You've heard that we've had a number of fishers before committee who are finding this a challenge, and they don't feel that they're listened to. You did reference, I believe, Ms. Perry, that you are now in some cases going town to town and village to village and talking to the actual fishers, and not just listening to one organized body that represents some of the fishers and not all of them.

Can we get a commitment from you to look at this on a broader scale in the future, to do these consultations with the communities so that you can hear—other than from a parliamentary committee—from the fishers directly about their challenges with this vessel length policy?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

In 20 seconds or less, please.

[Mark Waddell]

We do engage extensively and we will continue to engage extensively with harvesters.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

Thank you. With that, we will go to me for five minutes. It's good to be king for the day, I guess.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

Mr. Waddell, with all due respect, I take offence to your comment on Ms. Jordan's question to you, where you said that you are not the safety experts. Why are you here? We are studying vessel length. This committee wants to know the background and the methods that go into the decisions affecting vessel length. If you can see that you have a committee of parliamentarians who are confused, can you imagine the fishers who are out there who have appeared before our committee and are also confused?

I would suggest—and this is a bit of grandstanding—as I did to Transport Canada, and to the TSB as well, that it is high time that these departments, these organizations, get their act together, because it's costing people's lives, it's costing people's livelihoods, and there is much frustration out there. For you to come before the committee.... I appreciate your testimony; you're just being honest that you're not the safety experts in this, but that is what we are studying today. It's what goes into vessel length policy. What are the decisions that go into that?

Ms. Perry, I have a question for you. As Ms. Jordan and others have mentioned, we've had numerous fishers appear before this committee on a number of different studies. As I alluded to earlier in my questioning, time and again we hear that DFO has abdicated their responsibility to FFAW, as well as to other organizations such as WWF in terms of policy and making the decisions in Atlantic Canada.

One of the last testimonies we heard was that in Newfoundland it depends on the connections that you have with FFAW and DFO on what regulations apply to you, who you are, and in such areas as boat regulations, lease options, quota transfers, quota pushovers, and designation of operators. What do you have to say to that comment?

[Jacqueline Perry]

I can say categorically that I disagree with that statement. We do indeed consult with the FFAW. I've mentioned that before in previous testimony. They are a legitimate harvester organization and—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

Ms. Perry, do you put FFAW before you put the fishers...?

[Jacqueline Perry]

I also can say categorically that we consult directly with fish harvesters. We weigh the input from many different stakeholders. It's not a question of putting one over the other. It's about finding balance—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

Well, actually, it is, because we've had testimony time and again with fishers and fish harvesters who have come before us and have said that they're being shut out of these discussions, and that FFAW, WWF, and others are making the decisions regarding policy.

[Jacqueline Perry]

I can reiterate that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is the decision-maker in matters of fisheries management, and we consult widely with a wide variety of stakeholders, including the FFAW. We will continue to do so as we consult with harvester organizations throughout the country, but we also consult with others, and we consult directly with fish harvesters.

Individuals who don't agree with our decisions will of course feel as though they haven't been consulted, or that their views have not been taken into consideration. That's understandable, and it is human, but it is not accurate to say that we abdicate our decision-making responsibility, and it is not accurate to say that we consult only with the FFAW.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

Your testimony today is that anybody who has come with testimony contradicting what you are saying today is just disgruntled and they are not happy. Is that correct? Their testimony is—

[Jacqueline Perry]

I don't want—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

It is your testimony. You've just said that they're not telling the truth.

[Jacqueline Perry]

I also said that anybody who was not seeing their particular individual views reflected in our decisions would be feeling frustrated. That's understandable.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Todd Doherty]

All right.

With that, I will cede the floor to Mr. McDonald.

It is your study. You have five minutes, sir.