Evidence of meeting #96 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)
Duane Post  Councillor, District of Kent
Linda Nowlan  Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association
James Lawson  As an Individual
Cailyn Siider  As an Individual
Chelsey Ellis  As an Individual

11 a.m.

The Chair Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

Good morning, everyone.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April 16, 2018, we are studying Bill C-68, an act to amend the Fisheries Act and other acts in consequence.

Today, I want to welcome to the committee Mr. Vandal from Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, who is subbing in for Mr. Rogers.

We have by video conference Duane Post.

From West Coast Environmental Law Association, we have Linda Nowlan, staff counsel.

We're going to start with opening remarks from Mr. Post.

You have 10 minutes, please.

11 a.m.

Duane Post Councillor, District of Kent

Thank you for allowing me to come before the committee.

I'm a councillor for the District of Kent in British Columbia. Our community has about 6,000 people living here. We're very interested in this process, and in this bill.

We have approximately 142 kilometres of ditches in the District of Kent. Most of those are on agricultural properties. They help with flood infrastructure, and with drainage of farmland.

We have two federal prisons in the District of Kent. We also have the Agassiz research facility, which is also a federal complex. Some of the challenges we face around our flood infrastructure and drainage are the compensation requirements that are often imposed on us. Some of the habitat alteration or destruction of habitat is often difficult to mitigate.

Oftentimes when we do drainage work, it really does result in habitat improvement, yet we need to compensate for that, mostly by planting other plants, which help with fish habitat.

One of the main problems with that is the maintenance of that compensation. There isn't really a plan for that. We always end up maintaining that. It becomes something that our local government always needs to budget for. We feel that's a little bit of downloading from other government levels. We're really interested in this process, and how it's going to look.

I welcome the opportunity to answer any questions that any of you may have.

Thank you.

11 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you very much, Mr. Post.

Next is Ms. Nowlan from West Coast Environmental Law.

11 a.m.

Linda Nowlan Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association

Madam Chair, it's a pleasure to be here again.

Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to present to you today.

During the last election, you heard loud and clear that Canadians had lost faith in the revised system under the previous government to approve projects with impacts on fish habitat. The West Coast Environmental Law Association commends the government for following through on its commitment to restore lost protections and modernize the Fisheries Act.

There are many provisions that we and many others across the country are pleased to see, and I'm happy to talk more about them if you want. Today, though, I'm here to talk about how you can improve the act even more while you have the chance to do so. As the minister mentioned this morning, there is still time to propose amendments.

Many conservation groups have worked collaboratively to analyze this bill and have proposed amendments on three key issues: rebuilding fish stocks, cumulative effects, and environmental flows and fish passage. We fully support and endorse these.

Today I'll address two broad areas where you can propose amendments that will make the act even better and address past criticisms of it. You can set national legally binding and enforceable standards in the law directly. I'll speak to two of these issues: flows and cumulative effects.

The other big issue I'll speak about is increasing government transparency and accountability. The government has made great strides in this area as well, especially with mandate letter commitments. Additional improvements can be made to increase transparency and accountability, and I'll speak of three ways.

First is legally binding standards.

As described in one of our briefs to you, the legislative history of this act, going back to when it was first introduced—and it is one of Canada's oldest acts—shows Parliament's clear intent to create national standards for the protection of fish and habitat. Courts at all levels have confirmed the wide scope of this federal power.

Standards on environmental flows are a priority area for legislative change. The minister this morning gave you the internationally accepted definition of “environmental flows”. This definition is included in laws around the world, and it really would be an improvement to Bill C-68 to actually talk about the flow regime and environmental flows—the environmental role of water for fish. Water law was traditionally about water for people. The concept of environmental flows shows that water has a really critical environmental role, especially for fish and other aquatic organisms.

DFO's own science advisory report from 2012 talks about the need for a national framework for flow, so that there can be a consistent approach to this issue across Canada. From all your work, you know very well about the decline in fish—northern cod, which was spoken about this morning, and both Atlantic and Pacific salmon—and the decline of fish habitat, which continues apace across this country. One example is that only 10% of the former habitat of the lower watershed in the Fraser River remains, and that's one of the biggest salmon-producing rivers in North America and probably the world.

Minister LeBlanc indicated a willingness to consider amendments. We have provided language for amendments that define environmental flows, establish national standards on the acceptable limits of flow alteration, and establish monitoring requirements.

The second area that you've already heard about this morning is cumulative effects. This is a big one. The government is grappling with it, and I know the department is grappling with it. It's a difficult one.

The cumulative effects of small projects remain a major cause of habitat loss, and this was a priority issue in public consultations. The minister said there are two types of projects: large projects, which go through the authorization, and low-risk projects that avoid harm. This actually leaves a really big gap in terms of all the medium-sized projects—a massive number of small to medium-sized projects that cumulatively can impact fish habitat and cause it to be lost.

We support amendments that have been provided to the department and will be provided to this committee in briefs, which talk about ways to better address cumulative effects. One way to do this is by expanding the records that are in the proposed new public registry, to require not only the authorizations in there but also that all the projects be approved under the codes of practice and under designated project regulations. You can really press a button—online registry—and say, “Here's our project. Here's where it is.” People can track it. Scientists will track it, as will researchers and DFO.

This bill also needs to address one of the chief ways that DFO currently uses to exempt proponents from the need to obtain a habitat authorization, and that's the letter of advice. This isn't mentioned at all in the act. We suggest and recommend that the letter of advice be defined in the act, and that all letters of advice also be posted on the public registry. A letter of advice is given to a proponent because there is the potential to cause harm to fish habitat. Why not tell everybody about this advice?

I'll move rapidly along, because I know I have limited time here.

I also want to talk about, in the second half, transparency and increasing accountability. I've already mentioned the public registry. We and many others strongly support this. This has been a recommendation from many groups for many years.

There's a great registry for CEAA projects. We need such a registry for fish and fish habitat projects as well. Now we have one, and that's great, but the rationale for making some records mandatory and some optional is really unclear. Mandatory records include standards and permits, and optional records include guidelines, policies, and intergovernmental agreements.

It's really not clear why there's a distinction between mandatory records and optional records, the ones that are listed in proposed section 42.3. We recommend that all the ones listed as optional be mandatory.

There's a new requirement for more transparency and public access to information, which again is a great improvement. It's a five-year report from this committee, or your corresponding Senate committee, on the administration of the act. We suggest and recommend that if you're going to do such a five-year report, why not do the state of fish habitat and the state of fish stocks across Canada? Our neighbour to the south, with a bigger population and more impacts, does a national fish habitat report every five years, and Canada can and should do that as well.

Third and finally, the act can increase accountability through legal mechanisms allowing other levels of government and scientists to request action, and require a response from the minister. We're proposing this amendment to deal with one of the big criticisms of the former act, that there was too much discretion.

The minister and his or her staff could, really, make decisions without too many bounds on their discretion. The act has been changed. There are many factors that now must be considered when making decisions under the act, but we recommend that another way to increase accountability would be for other levels of government, scientists, and conservation groups to make requests. I'll give you one example of what I'm talking about.

There's a new provision in this act for the protection of long-term area-based fisheries restrictions, and these are what DFO calls marine refuges. They're intended to be a complement to marine protected areas. Long-term fisheries closures are a federal responsibility. They can only be imposed by the federal government. They really require an extra level of protection for provincially and indigenous declared marine protected areas.

For example, as far back as 2004, the Province of B.C. has requested from DFO that for the ecological reserves and marine protected areas declared under provincial law, the province wants federal fisheries closures. It wants full protection for those areas. Fourteen years later, that still hasn't happened. The province is still talking to the federal government about it.

Why not put in a legislative mechanism requiring the minister to act, creating the ability for a province, or an indigenous government to make this request of the minister, and requiring a response from the minister about the decision? Indigenous declared marine protected areas are another set of places where complementary federal fisheries closures could enhance protection.

There are some other suggestions for increasing accountability through this ability for people or other levels of government to request the minister to take action that are set out in our brief, which will be provided to you shortly. You're moving so quickly, and we haven't yet filed our brief, but we will.

In conclusion, many of the provisions in Bill C-68 will require regulations. We look forward to working with the department and the government to make these regulations effective. It's important to examine whether all the procedures contained in this law will help restore Canadians' faith in the fisheries regime. We're sure your committee wants to achieve this goal, and will work with everybody who appears before you on amendments to achieve that goal.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Ms. Nowlan.

From the government side, we're going to Mr. Hardie, for seven minutes. Please make sure you direct your questions to whom you want to speak to.

Mr. Post, if you want to weigh in on anything, just raise your hand and we'll get to you as well. It's sometimes hard to keep track of the people on video, but we'll make sure we get to you. Thank you.

Mr. Hardie.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Post, you're larger than life on the big screen here, so we'll start with you.

When we were examining the previous government's changes to the Fisheries Act, much of the work that we did was to try and understand what motivated those changes and to put an effort into maintaining the changes that made sense and then refining the changes that maybe didn't produce the results or the regime that people felt comfortable with.

With respect to your municipality, you have a lot of agriculture out there, but I think you also have some pieces of the Fraser River that you're probably bordering on, if I'm not mistaken. How do some of the changes that you see in this bill sit with you, with respect to some of the problems that may have been solved by the previous changes? Are we reverting to the old problems, in your view, or have we hit a good spot here?

11:15 a.m.

Councillor, District of Kent

Duane Post

With respect to HADD, the harmful alteration, disruption, or destruction of fish habitat, that's triggered any time we do any ditch maintenance work. Often, when the ditch work is done, the habitat is improved. With the previous Fisheries Act, we felt that we were achieving that. Now, we're a bit worried that we're reverting to it.

Nationally, I understand that it probably is a good policy, but for us locally, it's difficult for us to work with and usually results in less ditch work or maintenance work being completed, which costs us more money in the long term.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

You mentioned that some of the work you do on the drainage ditches actually improves habitat. Is there any mechanism in place that captures that information, so that you can show DFO or whoever asks that the situation in fact is better once you've done that work?

11:15 a.m.

Councillor, District of Kent

Duane Post

Yes, there is. There are fish studies that are done. Dissolved oxygen is improved. One of the biggest problems that we have is reed canary grass, which grows as a mat in the ditch. Once that's removed, it's much more clear, open water and a lot better for fish.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

There's obviously an obligation to ensure that things are clear, so that you know what the rules are and particularly how they apply. The concept of the habitat bank may be of interest to you, because if you are making these improvements, there should be a credit of some sort for that. Does that appear obvious to you in the legislation?

11:15 a.m.

Councillor, District of Kent

Duane Post

Yes. In what I've read, I'm looking forward to that and for our municipality to be able to use a credit system. I think that part of it would be beneficial to us.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you.

Ms. Nowlan, the issue of cumulative effects is an interesting one because little by little a system can be degraded, like a dock here, a culvert there, etc. It raises the issue about how you measure or how you decide when you've reached the tipping point. Are we looking at the prospect of retroactive obligations to the people who maybe have built something there many years earlier or, as some people are fearing, that this could end up with the last one in has to carry the load for the cumulative effects that have gone on for quite some time? Can you comment on that?

11:15 a.m.

Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association

Linda Nowlan

Sure. I think that the act won't have retroactive effect and there are new provisions for ecological restoration in areas that have been damaged by the cumulative effect of multiple small projects, so that is an improvement.

Areas that are particularly sensitive could be designated under the ecologically significant area regulations. This was an improvement made in the 2012 version of the act, but no such areas have ever been designated. Now, this bill says that when you're designating that area, you should prepare a fish habitat restoration plan. For example, in some parts of the lower Fraser, you could designate an ecologically significant area and then you could look at restoration plans. I think this act does provide some good guidance on how to address that issue.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

How do we address, or try to avoid, that the last project in has to shoulder the weight of everything that's gone on before? Do you have any suggestions?

11:15 a.m.

Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association

Linda Nowlan

I think registering all the projects on this public registry would be an improvement. For example, if there was a code of practice for agricultural ditches, you could just register the fact that you had done work on your ditch. You could get credit if you restored habitat, and you would get demerits if you actually damaged it. People would know what the impact on habitat was from that particular project, and could add it up with others.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Another issue is transition. Every time governments change the rules, there are people who are caught, literally and figuratively, in midstream. I heard from some mining interests that were concerned that when the rules were changed in 2012, there were some people not necessarily far enough along to have been grandfathered into the old system, which set them back and imposed significant costs. There are similar concerns this time around because we're changing things back again.

Do you have any thoughts from your standpoint? We do have to continue to care for that balance of the economy and the environment.

11:20 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

I will allow for a very quick answer on this one. It's going to go overtime, but very quickly please, Ms. Nowlan.

11:20 a.m.

Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association

Linda Nowlan

That's fine. I think the act can do both and does do both.

11:20 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you.

We move now to Mr. Arnold, for seven minutes, please.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to both of our witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Post, you commented about the previous version of HADD and seeing it return. HADD, which is harmful alteration or destruction of fish habitat, appears to be a noble cause, but in practicality, how did it affect operations of your district and other municipalities in the lower Fraser, when dealing with flood mitigation, flood avoidance, and so on? Could you tell us some of the issues?

11:20 a.m.

Councillor, District of Kent

Duane Post

It was restrictive in nature because you always had to compensate for ditch work or flood mitigation work that you've done, whereas the actual work was often an improvement for fish habitat. We always felt it was really quite restrictive.

In the last few years, DFO has been good to work with. Previous to 2012, they were staffed a bit better. There was more staff. They were good to work with, quick to get back to you. In the last few years, it's been turned over more to the province. In that regard, it's been more difficult.

Getting back to HADD, HADD results in more work for our municipality.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Is it more restrictive for you to carry on day-to-day operations?

11:20 a.m.

Councillor, District of Kent

Duane Post

Right. Really, we get less work done with the same budget.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

Ms. Nowlan, I believe you spoke about clarity in the bill, how it should increase accountability and so on. I want to refer to an article in The Lawyer's Daily. It's a publication from law firms. In the second paragraph, it states:

Bill C-68 introduced by the Trudeau government Feb. 6 would also create a bit of a bonanza for lawyers who advise on environmental and other regulatory matters...

That's a pretty glaring statement that there's uncertainty and lack of clarity in this legislation. How can you say that it's providing clarity when this review by law firms says exactly the opposite?

11:20 a.m.

Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association

Linda Nowlan

I have read the article and I think what it says is that every time a law is changed, it's a bonanza for lawyers. That's a fact of life. No matter when you change the law, it's a bonanza for lawyers. When the law was changed in 2012, it was a bonanza for lawyers, too.

I think what that article was getting at is that there will be some new litigation. There has been litigation about the Fisheries Act for over 150 years. It's not excessive by any means. It clarifies the law and the intent. If the HADD provision hadn't been taken out in 2012, we would have had another six years of court interpretations of what that means. But it was taken out and now it's back. The courts will actually be able to pretty easily go back to the previous decades of precedent in case law to interpret those provisions, so I think it was a bit of an overstatement.

The law firm represents corporate clients, which is great. We get tons of questions from community groups and scientists who are out in the field doing research, who really welcome what this law stands for.