Ms. Ellis, please.
Evidence of meeting #96 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #96 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.
A recording is available from Parliament.
April 24th, 2018 / 12:15 p.m.
Chelsey Ellis As an Individual
Madam Chair, and honourable members, first of all, I would like to thank you very much for allowing us the time to speak. I really appreciate this opportunity.
My name is Chelsey Ellis, and I'm a third-generation fisherwoman from a small fishing village in Prince Edward Island. I spent my early years on the water fishing lobster and scallops with my family. I then graduated with a biology degree that was heavily concentrated in marine science. Upon graduating, I took a position in the U.S. working for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration as a fisheries observer. I then moved on to a position with the P.E.I. provincial government as an oyster biologist, and I was working on the side as a seafood traceability coordinator in Atlantic Canada.
I have been living on the west coast in small fishing towns in B.C. for the past six years as a seafood traceability coordinator, a fisheries observer, a monitoring program coordinator, and also as a commercial fisher. I have worked in 11 different fisheries as a biologist and commercial fisher on two coasts in both Canada and the U.S. I'm currently working towards my 150 ton master ticket, and I'm a member of the BC Young Fishermen's Network.
I'm here today to offer my unique experience to the proposed changes to the Fisheries Act, specifically the two pieces that I feel are missing. One, in decision-making, the preservation or promotion of the independence of active fish harvesters needs to be taken into account in all of Canada's fisheries. Two, the knowledge of commercial fish harvesters needs to be added as a consideration for decision-making. This is crucial to maximizing the social, economic, and cultural benefits of all of our fisheries.
Commercial fishing is the backbone of my community on Prince Edward Island. The provisions in place on the east coast protect and promote the independent owner-operator. This provides a meaningful and important livelihood that supports people in place, allowing young people the opportunity to stay in their communities and follow their families' traditions if they choose to do so.
I found this to be in stark contrast to the west coast, where provisions in place do not support and protect independent owner-operators. Companies, shareholders, and foreign entities have been enabled to buy and lease licences and quota. This has resulted in licences and quota being transferred out of the hands of fishermen and communities, creating extremely high capital costs, which have resulted in huge barriers to entry for the younger generation.
Through my experience as a biologist and a commercial fisher on both coasts, I've seen the impact that this discrepancy has created. Young people are not able to see themselves gaining access to or making decent wages in the fisheries on the west coast. The high cost to lease licences and quota has transferred most of the profits from fishing out of the hands of those who are doing the long hours and hard work to those who simply have the deep pockets to make the costly investment.
It doesn't have to be that way. This government can preserve and promote the independence of active fish harvesters across all fisheries in Canada. If steps were taken in the long-term direction of preserving or promoting the independence of active fish harvesters on the west coast, it would create great benefits to sustainable fisheries and healthy coastal communities in the exact same way that it would on the east coast.
Through my experience, I've seen that having an intergenerational link within the industry is a huge component to sustainable fisheries and healthy coastal communities.
We are at a crucial moment on the west coast. If things continue in the current direction, the intergenerational link is going to be severely or completely broken. Taking the control of resources outside of coastal communities and the fishers who fish them can have a negative impact on sustainability. Independent multi-generational fishers have the most to lose if a fishery isn't sustainably managed.
There are great amounts of pride, respect for the ocean, and knowledge transferred generationally in commercial fishing—transmission to family, and to all the people starting out in the industry who come to work for multi-generational fishers. I have seen this transmission through my own family and in action on both coasts. It's an extremely positive experience being on a boat with a multi-generational family fisher or someone who has directly learned from one.
Many multi-generational fishing families on the west coast have members who would like to continue working in the industry. Unfortunately, many of them are unable to make a decent living to support their families and ultimately have to make the choice to look for work elsewhere.
It's the same problem that is being seen in the Vancouver housing market. Many young people would love to own a home in Vancouver, but it's not a realistic option. Houses are no longer a place to live, but an investment to make profit from. This creates a speculative market and drives up the cost.
In the same way, owning fishing licences and quota under current policy on the west coast has become an investment that pays high returns. Just as stand-alone houses in Vancouver are unaffordable to the vast majority of the population, fishing licences are unaffordable to almost everyone trying to enter or expand within the fishery, and that is because of the speculative market.
The threat this creates to long-term sustainability is that the current system on the west coast creates the same differences that can be seen between home owners and renters. Fishermen who are only able to lease licences and quota, by circumstance, don't always have the same long-term vision and goals as independent owner-operators. It creates an attitude of making as much as you can as quickly as you can to offset the huge cost of leasing the licences and quota. If you don't feel you have a stake in the future, why would you be worried about the long term?
By preserving or promoting the independence of active fish harvesters on the west coast, you would be promoting sustainable fisheries and healthy coastal communities, which leads to my second point.
To fully understand what is happening in an ecosystem, the knowledge of commercial fishers needs to be added as a consideration for the decision-making. The men and women who have fished for their entire lives have intimate community knowledge of their local ecosystems. These fishers have worked on the water for 30 years, 40 years, and more, as have their parents before them. Utilizing their knowledge could ultimately help DFO make better management decisions.
Bill C-68 should afford opportunities for knowledge transmission and decision-making from commercial fish harvesters and involve them more in the process. Through my work at a biologist, fisheries monitoring coordinator, and commercial fisher, I've noticed that there is a negative attitude toward using the knowledge of fish harvesters in management decisions. A broken link exists in communication, where the knowledge of fishermen is not being accounted for and is being unfairly branded as untrustworthy. This is to the detriment of all involved and is creating great amounts of extra work and making it harder to enact positive change.
I see a future where fishers are inextricably involved in fisheries management, monitoring, and enhancement, using their on-the-ground knowledge and innovative thinking to work together with government to improve the fisheries for present and future generations.
I am so optimistic about the future of our fisheries in Canada. I hope people for generations to come will be able to have the same positive experience of commercial fishing that has enriched my life.
I've spoken with hundreds of fishers on both coasts, and the common thread is that commercial fishing is an important tradition and lifestyle. It is also a platform to challenge yourself and to explore and exceed your personal limitations. It's a meaningful living that completely connects people to place and creates a personal identity.
I have hopes that this experience and the benefit it has for our coastal communities will be understood and steps will be taken toward protecting it over the long term. We need you to all be partners in that.
In closing, I would suggest that Bill C-68 should include the following in its considerations for decision-making: one, the preservation or promotion of the independence of active fish harvesters in all fisheries; and two, the knowledge of fish harvesters. These two additions would be positive steps forward to maximize the social, economic, and cultural benefits to commercial fishers, coastal communities, and the future generations of all Canadians who are called to this work.
While working on the west coast for the past six years, I have collected photographs and interviewed those who work in the industry. I'm leaving you with a very small sample of their voices explaining why they love to fish and their hopes for the future. Their reasons for fishing and their hopes for the future echo up and down the west coast.
I want to thank you again for this great opportunity to speak. I really value your taking the time to listen.
12:25 p.m.
Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)
Thank you very much, Ms. Ellis.
We do have copies of the presentation that Ms. Ellis is speaking about, and we will have it translated and distributed to members.
I would be remiss if I did not say, as the only woman on this committee, that it's wonderful to have some women fishers presenting today. Thank you very much for that.
We are going to Mr. Hardie for the first seven minutes, please.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our guests for being here. Your comments have echoed some fairly deep-rooted suspicions we've had.
Just to clarify, we made the point in some of our earlier studies and will continue to make the point that relying on traditional knowledge does not confine itself to indigenous fishers. It means everybody who's on the water who knows something.
I'll also reflect that very often we've heard about the difficulties people have in dealing with the DFO and about how closed they are to outside information, whereas I think our orientation has been to see more citizen science. Given that basically we're dealing more and more, as we've heard from our west coast colleagues.... These aren't fishers from 50 years ago; these are scientists. These are people who have high education and know things and whose resource is being wasted because the doors have been closed to them. We want to open those doors.
In our conversations with the minister this morning, we brought up the owner-operator issue. Like you, I'm from the west coast, and I've often wondered how it is that we got to the situation there, when so much effort is being made to preserve the economic and social benefits of the owner-operator situation on the east coast. My colleagues can tell you that even there it's under stress and threat.
The minister said that it's a permissive environment or regime. If enough people want it, it's possible to get it on the west coast. The challenge to you is thus to start thinking about how that transition could be made.
An independent fisher on the west coast of Vancouver Island was telling me about fishing for halibut. He was getting, and the numbers may not be absolutely correct, $9 a pound, but he was paying $7 a pound in rent.
Mr. Lawson, is that pretty typical? I'll ask all of you. What percentage of the actual revenue are you able to keep after you pay rent to God knows who?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
I know this is the upcoming year for the big sockeye cycle on the south coast of B.C. I did some calling around trying to procure some more licences for the boat I fish on. There are offers requiring that 50% of the profits from that licence—that's all the sockeye quota and all other fisheries—go straight to the licence holder. That's not taking into account all the expenses we have on top of that, such as for fuel and paying our crew. The money washes away very fast when the leases are so high.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
When I went to school, the boat I fish crab with went out halibut fishing. You're right on the numbers. It was even a bit more. The price was $9 last year, and it was about $7.50 for the lease. This year the price for halibut has gone down to about $7, and then the lease has been adjusted accordingly to $5.50, so it seems that it's just adjusting to whatever people will go to fish for. It's just shifting. I'm not sure what the percentage would be.
I haven't wanted to go halibut fishing, because it's a lot of work, and people just aren't getting paid enough for the back-breaking, long, and really dangerous work.
I've put my hands up because I couldn't go to school.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
My time is short, and I need to ask about aquaculture.
There was a report this morning that was very damning of the industry, or at least of DFO's oversight of it. Can you give us even anecdotally a very quick snapshot, for the sake of time, of the impacts you're seeing from aquaculture in your area?
James, we'll start with you.
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I just left that central coast herring charter, and you can ask me how happy I was when we were plowing through a 40-knot gale in the Queen Charlotte Strait. We were going to go to a place called Shelter Bay. There was a fish farm in there. I looked there, and I couldn't go to this bay: it's a competing industry, and it's polluting our fish. I have nothing good to say about it. There is no reason they should be in the waters without more regulation. They should really be on land.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Is Alexandra Morton pretty much spot on, in your opinion, in some of her assessments?
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, completely. In my experience and in my opinion, she fully utilizes traditional and community knowledge in her work and on the ground. I fully support Alexandra Morton in all of her endeavours.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
On fish processing, you invoke the name of Jimmy Pattison who, you will find, if you go into metro Vancouver or the Lower Mainland, is a philanthropist. He literally builds hospitals for people, and he enjoys a pretty wonderful reputation. But if you go up the coast towards Rupert and all the rest, the story is different. I understand that he basically controls about 40% of the licences on the west coast.
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I'm not exactly sure what the number is. I believe it's approximately 90% of the same fishery.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Something like that. He closed the processing plant in Prince Rupert and moved a lot of that work to Alaska.
Where do you have to go to get your fish processed?
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
In my experience, I've worked on company boats and I've worked on independent boats. I've worked on independent boats that are choked by Jimmy Pattison. Most of my salmon seine career has been on one of those independent boats. There simply isn't the infrastructure. We pretty much have to deliver to Jim Pattison. There are a few other smaller companies, one of which James fishes for, but Jimmy Pattison controls the infrastructure. There's nowhere else to get ice. There's nowhere else to take our fish. There's nowhere else to sell our fish, so he has a monopoly. He pays us what he wants, when he wants, and ships our fish north to be processed.
12:30 p.m.
Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)
Thank you, Ms. Siider.
I'm going to have to move on to the next round of questioning.
Mr. Arnold, please, for seven minutes.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Witnesses, I want to thank you for being here, especially in your youthfulness. It's not a common sight for our witnesses to have that young enthusiasm and enthusiasm for the industry.
It reminds me. I was at home during a constituency week recently, and we did a farm tour. We toured a dairy farm and talked about the young families wanting to take over the family farm and the investments that were required there. They did a quick survey of five local farms, and the average investment for young people basically your age to take it over from their parents was over $2 million per farm. I don't know what your investments are in your boats, but they are probably pretty extreme for a young person to consider. I want to recognize the similarities in that, trying to carry on traditional and family businesses.
We've heard over the years that originally fishermen were very reluctant to have monitoring systems on their vessels, reporting their catches, and so on, and there are all kinds of reasons for that. Nobody wants to give up their secret fishing spot. I don't when I'm home and get a chance to fish. That seems to be changing with an acceptance of the responsibility and the value that can be added there. Could you provide a bit of background on that part of it?
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
One of the greatest things that I've seen was when I moved up to Prince Rupert. I was working with the area A monitoring program with Ecotrust Canada. This was a monitoring program. Area A in the crab fishery has voluntarily.... At the start, they asked to have the camera and the monitoring programs put in place. They were the driving force behind that, because they knew that it was the way forward.
What I've seen and what I think it going to be detrimental to something that's going to be so great coming forward is that there's a lack of understanding about the system and still a really negative perception in attitude towards fishermen. Something that I saw that was causing so much extra work and creating a lot of frustration was that DFO wasn't understanding how the monitoring system applied to fishermen, and they were getting warning letters just for having a single missed scan on a buoy, when that is great. You know, the poor fellows were getting warning letters, and the system was being used in a negative way, and I think lots of other people heard about that, and that created a lot of confusion and negativity around monitoring.
I think the way forward with monitoring is to help people who are working in enforcement, in management, and in regulation to understand what it is to be a commercial fishermen, the positive experience that it is, and who these people are. I think that will save so much time and taxpayers' money and create really resilient fisheries.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you.
Did the other two have a comment on the monitoring?
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
I have just a brief comment.
Since I've been on the area B harvest committee, when we're dealing with area managers, we often hear, “no science, no fishery”. We represent a very large dataset, so it's starting to get a bit easier for us to be less reluctant to give up our spots or how much we have caught because we know that if we don't, there might be no opportunity.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
It seems to echo some of the testimony we've heard on the east coast, where the fishermen are willing to go out and do test fisheries, but they're simply not permitted to actually provide that information that could better help the department manage the fisheries or actually know what's out there.
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Just making them feel like they're a part of it, instead of keeping it separate from them and against them, I think will turn the whole thing around.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay.
Chelsey, you mentioned that commercial fishermen want to be part of the decision-making process. This ties into what we were just saying. I think everybody wants to be part of that process.
How have you seen the decision-making process so far?
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Again, working as an observer and as a monitoring program coordinator, it still boils down to the negative attitude or perception of commercial fishers within DFO and within enforcement that's creating really huge barriers. I've seen it where commercial fishermen are trying to work together to create a better season for themselves, but it's not going forward and it seems that there's a really big break in communication that needs to be fixed.