Fisheries Committee on July 21st, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. May.

Go ahead, Mr. Calkins, for five minutes or less, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to put my questions to the gentlemen from Kiewit.

In your opening comments, Mr. Tones, you said that you were building infrastructure to support long-term operations. If you're not building fish ladders, is the Whooshh system considered to be one of the long-term operational aspects that you have been asked to design infrastructure to support?

[Ryan Tones]

No, I don't believe the Whooshh system is a long-term solution—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

If that's the case, then what was the long-term stuff you were talking about?

[Ryan Tones]

There are two elements that I believe are long term that are being completed on the site.

One is the rockfall protection. It's an active slide area. To protect workers, the people who are down in that area, we have hung a series of rockfall mesh protections that will be able to last and stay for the long term.

In addition, when we were working our way back out of the riverbed as the water levels rose, we were able to build a portion of a natural fish ladder on one bank of the river that would stay for the long term.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I'll get back to the fish ladder thing in a second. The next question I have for you is about hydrology.

Did you have a before-and-after picture of the hydrology of the river after you removed, I believe, 14,000 cubic metres of rock, which I think was a number that you said exceeded the original expectation?

Obviously, from an engineering perspective, you would have looked at the hydrology to maximize.... Whether it's blasting out the East Toe or the larger chunks of rock, did you strategically go after specific areas of the river, or did you just go with the easiest stuff to get at? Did you have a before picture of the hydrology, and an after picture? Was there a target of the hydrology of the current you were looking for in order to enable fish passage, and were you able to achieve that, if that was indeed what you were trying to do?

[Ryan Tones]

Kiewit's contract was an execution at the start, not a design contract. The initial design hydrology was done through the client. There were targets set of certain boulders, of certain portions of the rock in the river that needed to be removed. Absolutely, there were targets to go and get those key pieces that the group felt would make the most impact to the hydrology.

Once that was achieved and while the water level was still low enough, the group collaborated on next areas to focus on, and removed as much rock as possible before levels came up. Hydrology work was then done to map out how much rock had been removed.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I suspect we would have to get the answers for fish passage from the department, so I'll wait for the department to get back before the committee for that type of question.

Have you guys built any fish ladders before, in any of your previous work in British Columbia?

[Ryan Tones]

In British Columbia, we do fish ladder work around hydroelectric operations. We've been involved with independent power, etc.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

In those particular scenarios, there's usually a fairly defined water level at the bottom, and a fairly defined water level at the top. In this particular case, you don't know what the water level is going to be, based on the freshet, runoff, melts, rainfall, and so on. What kinds of unique issues like these are you able to create solutions for? How are you going to create a solution, not knowing how high the water level is going to be at the bottom of the ladder and not knowing where the water is going to be at the top of the ladder? How are you going to manage that?

[Ryan Tones]

That is not currently part of our scope. We haven't been asked to be part of the design or to build a permanent fish ladder.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Have there been no conversations or discussions about that at all?

[Ryan Tones]

Not for a permanent fix at this time, but given the opportunity by the committee, DFO, etc., we'd be happy to collaborate with the group here, or the first nations involved, to find that design and solution.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Then the only two solutions, really, that the department has invested money in through you are, one, removal of the rock structures, and two, setting up the infrastructure to support the pneumatic system. Is that correct?

[Ryan Tones]

That's mostly correct. As I mentioned, we had also done some work on the permanent rockfall protection as well as a portion of the natural ladder.

I'm happy to pass it over to Pat Wilson, the project manager, if there's more scope that I'm missing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Mr. Calkins; your time is up.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You're welcome.

Now we'll go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to get back to our indigenous folks. It's really good to have you guys here, because we're getting a glimpse of things, and not just with the current situation. My focus and my interest is in what goes beyond this particular project.

The management council, the collaborative management council, is a great title. It would be nice to think that this structure would survive beyond the permanent resolution of the Big Bar issue into work that we need to have done to come up with more permanent solutions to the greater issues, the habitat and all of the things that are affecting the health of the salmon stocks in British Columbia.

You mentioned that resources were a big thing. Our government has invested a lot of money back into DFO, into science and everything else, but in some of our earlier studies we also recognized that the people who live on the ground in the community are a resource that we have not marshalled, not mobilized.

You talked about the resources necessary to get the current work done and then perhaps the resources necessary to keep moving forward. Can you put dollars and cents to that? It all comes down to that, obviously, and the kind of investment that's necessary to make sure that the effort we've seen so far works in the current project, first of all, but can also translate into future work to help us restore the stocks.

Can you put a dollar figure on what you think it will take on an ongoing basis, not just a one-time hit?

[Darren Haskell]

I can provide an example. This year's proposed budget was to include our Fraser salmon management board, our joint technical committee, as well as our Fraser Salmon Management Council main table directors. Combined, it was worth $757,000. That was just to work on the management piece of it. Looking at some of the correspondence from our executive director, I think we're about $200,000 short of that.

When it comes to habitat and rebuilding and large infrastructure projects like that, you can easily get into long-term projects that can surpass millions, potentially. To really say that any specific amount....

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I appreciate that.

Mr. Witzky or Chief Harry, do you have any additional comments?

[Greg Witzky]

I was going to let the chief go first, but I could add one additional comment.

By the time we're finished with Big Bar landslide, we'll probably end up at close to $100 million. If it's an equal and equity-based partnership, 33% should be for first nations involvement in the future for other reasons—habitat and traditional knowledge and political engagement and everything.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay.

[Greg Witzky]

That's my personal point of view, but I think a lot of other people would support it.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Chief Harry, is there any comment from you?