Fisheries Committee on July 21st, 2020

[Darren Haskell]

I'll answer just quickly before Greg.

The funding we're speaking about right now is part of our Fraser salmon management board and the technical committee itself. We do have some technical experts who are part of those committees, which requires a lot of work. To be honest, biologists aren't cheap, and the work they do is specific to salmon, so it is important to really have that technical expertise as part of this group. In order for us to make the proper decisions, we need those technical people.

[Greg Witzky]

Do you want me to step in and mention a few comments?

[Darren Haskell]

Yes, Greg.

[Greg Witzky]

My speech was cut off by about 30 seconds because I guess it was too long.

Anyway, the inclusion of our indigenous knowledge is essential to the success of these types of agreements, but that information isn't cheap. It needs to be resourced similar to the acquisition of biologists' scientific knowledge, western knowledge.

That sort of answers where our traditional knowledge component would come into play, because we have to bring it from the elders. It has to be from the communities. It has to be from the language speakers, the resource users and the knowledge holders themselves—the fishers, the hunters, the gatherers. It's not as simple as just asking one person on a committee. You have to involve the whole community.

That's my part about the traditional awareness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

Thank you, Madame Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns, for six minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you all for your testimony and for your deep commitment to addressing this issue and the issues surrounding the impact that's happening on the Fraser River.

Maybe I'll start with you, Mr. Witzky, because you're on a thread that I wanted to go to.

You talked about indigenous and traditional knowledge and the lack of resources to be able to get that information. The government constantly cites the importance of indigenous and local knowledge. Without those resources, do you feel confident that indigenous and traditional knowledge is being used in this situation and applied to help resolve this situation?

[Greg Witzky]

Frankly, no. There are not enough funds available to provide full traditional knowledge. We can scrape the top off the butter, but we can't dig in deep with the knife. That's a funny way of putting it, but, yes, seriously, there are not enough funds. For the amount of resources out there, there should be funds available on the resources extracted.

Thank you.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you want to add to that, Chief Harry? I think this might be something you might also touch on. You touched on rights and reconciliation, rights and title—I think the government hasn't resolved some of the outstanding issues related to rights and title—and the importance of those outstanding issues with the Crown getting resolved so there are resources to better manage the stocks.

I come from Nuu-Chah-Nulth territory. You're probably aware of the Nuu-Chah-Nulth court case, where the government spent $19 million just on lawyers fighting the Nuu-Chah-Nulth on rights we know they've already established in the Supreme Court of British Columbia. Can you speak about how that's relevant in terms of resources here?

[Chief Patrick Harry]

Thank you.

I've also taken part in the Fraser Salmon Management Council meetings, and my community is the delegated representative at the Fraser Salmon Management Council meetings. As Darren mentioned, whether or not the Fraser Salmon Management Council is the delegated authority, there's been a lot of commitment from the 190 first nations that rely on the Fraser River salmon. At this point, over a third of them have signed on to the Fraser Salmon Management Council. To have that number of signatories to that agreement is a huge success. That shows the commitment we have for the B.C. first nations to look to recover the Pacific salmon stocks. It's not an easy task to get that many first nations on board. It shows that first nations are fully committed. I'm sure we'll have more come on board over the next little while.

This conversation we're having really goes back to the Crown's mandate, the nice gestures, the nice words we've been hearing over the past four years from Prime Minister Trudeau around recognition and reconciliation, supporting UNDRIP. You know what? When we speak about implementing UNDRIP, we think about passing on some of that responsibility the Crown and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans have held so dear to their hearts for so long.

If you want to implement the United Nations declaration, or you want to look to implement some of the court decisions, we have an opportunity with the Fraser Salmon Collaborative Management Agreement. Those are the fundamental steps that need to happen for us to be able to properly resource the traditional knowledge, title and rights discussion. Some of the responsibility needs to be passed on to the first nation.

That's probably being debated somewhere in Ottawa at this time as to how to do that. But that's what we want. We want responsibility with regard to fisheries within the Fraser River watershed. I think those discussions are coming, and we need to take them seriously. When I look at that Fraser Salmon Collaborative Management Agreement, it is a step towards first nations taking on more responsibility for salmon, and it's a long time coming.

We can look to tools such as that agreement to improve our place with regard to the management of the salmon stock, which means so much to our identity, a symbol of the people.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Part of the contract with Kiewit is to hire local indigenous people, ensuring that they're part of that process. Can you speak to the fulfilling of that commitment, Mr. Witzky?

[Greg Witzky]

Currently, we have two local first nations: Stl'atl'mx, which is part of the Fraser, and Secwepemc, which is the Shuswap part of the Fraser, so it's a collaboration of two nations. Individual bands within those nations have provided contractors, managers, technicians and security. All types of work are needed at the landslide, not just for the landslide itself but for following the monitoring and assessment of the salmon's return to the northern streams in the fall to determine if we're successful or not.

We're also involved in the engagement activities and a committee of first nations, which includes the first nations leadership panel. It's a consortium of leaderships from across the whole Fraser basin that is part of the decision-making process for landslide remediation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Witzky.

That's all your time, Gord. You've gone a bit over.

We'll now go to our second round of questioning, with the Conservative Party.

Mr. Bragdon, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses and fellow committee members who are on the call today.

Obviously, the issues and challenges we're facing in the fishery sector are huge at this time, particularly as they relate to the depleting salmon stocks from coast to coast. Being from the east coast, I know that the Atlantic salmon stocks and the decline of wild Atlantic salmon are a big concern for us on the east coast. We share that concern, and I thank the witnesses for being a part of the discussion today and bringing much-needed focus to this challenging area.

I want to address my first question to Chief Patrick Harry.

Chief Harry, according to DFO's timeline for the Big Bar project, archeology work at the slide site commenced on December 10. Was your administration consulted on this archeological work?

[Chief Patrick Harry]

Thank you.

The site at Big Bar is a very important and very sensitive site to Stswecem'c Xgat'tem First Nation. For those who have been lucky enough to visit the site, you definitely get a picture of why that site would be so dear to our people. That site down there has shown, through the archeological work, to be a very sensitive archeological area and culturally sensitive area.

I think part of the challenge with this project is definitely the number of players in the game, and the planning portion of this project. It means that sometimes work has to happen quickly. We find at Stswecem'c Xgat'tem that we are toeing the line as far as consultation occurring. We've said that natural fish passages are the number one priority. However, when you're dealing with free, prior and informed consent, there's definitely a path for that too.

Stswecem'c Xgat'tem has put its efforts into playing a very important role with regard to the Big Bar landslide recovery. We have a process in place at Stswecem'c Xgat'tem First Nation with regard to our land use policy and our consultation, accommodation guidelines. We're toeing the line because of timelines, because of Mother Nature.

I don't think it's been mentioned yet how much Mother Nature has played a role in this recovery. When you start to talk about timelines, we should definitely pay attention and be mindful that Mother Nature is in charge here. Mother Nature has definitely impacted this project.

There have been times when Stswecem'c Xgat'tem has made some decisions in a faster manner, quicker manner than we usually work, but we are consulted, definitely. Through the indigenous benefit planning, we've been able to have archeologists on the ground. Through our next period here, we will be renegotiating our indigenous benefits plan, and we plan on including the cultural heritage resource support within that plan.

We plan to continue to build synergy within this project. We can see the number of people on the screen here today, and I'm sure there are another 200 or 300 people behind the scenes who are working with this project. It's important that we have great synergy.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Chief.

Obviously, the archeological work is going on. I'm wondering whether you are aware of the outcome of the archeological work. Have there been some conclusive findings from that? Do you feel there's still a pathway forward here, within a timely fashion, to get to the desired solution for everyone?

[Chief Patrick Harry]

Really, we don't have a choice. We have to get this done. My nation's identity relies on this.

That's always been the basis for discussion with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, that my nation lies on the banks of the Fraser for a reason. These salmon have been feeding my people for generations. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for those salmon. We were placed in this part of the world because of the salmon. As far as my nation is concerned, we don't have a choice. We have to get this done, or our identity will be affected.

I can see the path forward. We came to a conclusion recently that we're looking at a permanent solution. Our community has supported the fish passageways, which are probably one of a few options we've had over the past year. The project has moved at a high speed, and at times we could probably tighten up some of those lines of communication and decision-making structures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon. Your time has gone way over.

We'll now go to Mr. Battiste for five minutes or less, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

[Member spoke in Mi'kmaq]

[English]

I want to say at the outset that I'll be sharing my time with MP May from the Green Party. Before I pass it on to her, I would like to acknowledge the chiefs and technicians for their time.

As a Mi'kmaw from Nova Scotia, I remember studying the Sparrow decision in law school and knowing how important that case was to indigenous fisheries all across Canada, and for that I thank you. I'm also looking forward to hearing more about the culture change, as you call it, that you would like to see within DFO.

At this point, I want to give time to MP May to ask her questions.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Wela'lin.

Thank you so much, Jaime. This is so generous of you.

I'm on the traditional territory, I acknowledge, of the WSANEC people and the Coast Salish peoples of the Saanich Peninsula.

I'm going to try to focus my question and ask it of Mr. Tones, but I want to preface it and make sure that I understood key points from Mr. Witzky and from Chief Patrick Harry.

What I've heard from you is that we need a permanent solution like Hell's Gate, which means that we're looking at fish ladders at this point, more than removal of rock. Hell's Gate happened in what, 1915? It took until the 1960s to develop a permanent solution with fish ladders and fishways, and that did end up working.

I just want to know, from Chief Harry and from Mr. Witzky, have I properly understood the key points you made about what it will take to recover—if we can recover—from this disastrous slide?

I'll go to Mr. Witzky first.

[Greg Witzky]

Thank you.

That was a key point. The work to remove rock will take decades. Fish ladders can take a year to two years. The fish don't have the time.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Chief Harry, is that your position as well?

[Chief Patrick Harry]

As I mentioned, it's a challenge. We have Mother Nature, who is playing a serious role in this project.

I believe that the permanent solution.... I rely on the professionals who have been giving us the ideas here, and I believe that the fishways can be a solution, but I also want to make sure that we don't forget about that rock recovery, because ultimately that rock recovery is going to be fundamental to a long-term solution here. There were 75,000 cubic metres on the floor of the river, and there's still a lot there. I don't want to see that rock recovery taken off the table, but yes, a permanent solution would be the fishways, and we're relying on that.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you so very much. Haishka.

I want to turn to our engineer with the Kiewit Corporation.

Mr. Tones, I know that you've been a recipient of $17 million initially, and that the cost has skyrocketed to $52 million. I'm wondering. Is the mandate—the terms of work, the scope of work that your company has right now—restricted to removal of rock? Or is any portion of it designated for how now is the time to start figuring out how to build fishways?

I hear you, Chief Harry. We don't want to abandon getting the rock out of the river, but it seems to me that we had better start figuring out how to build those fishways, because it's urgent.

What does your contract ask you to do?

[Ryan Tones]

Thank you for the question.

The contract has evolved over time. When it first started and we won the contract for the 17 million dollars' worth of scope, as you mentioned, it was for removal of a portion of the rock in the river. We were able to successfully execute that and remove more than anticipated. I believe I mentioned that approximately 14,000 cubic metres was addressed in the river, of the total rock that's down there. Then, as you understand from the Mother Nature comments, water levels were coming up and that rock removal operation was paused at that time.

Then we were asked to price and build additional scope around what was described as the Whooshh system. That was an approximately $30-million scope to do the mechanical transportation over the remaining rock. The third piece that I mentioned in my opening remarks is really about follow-on site management to help as we collaborate and discuss what the next step is.

We do not have any scope to do a permanent fish ladder at this point, or to do some of the other things that are being brainstormed. I'd just like to say on behalf of the company that if those things are of interest to the committee and to DFO down the road, we are absolutely open to discussing them to help the situation.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you all very much for your hard work to help our salmon. It's critical. Thank you so much.