Fisheries Committee on April 26th, 2021

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Will focusing on that make enough of a difference to save wild salmon stocks? That's the key question.

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

Well, I do believe it will. Our early application of FIT-CHIPS in sockeye salmon is showing a very high level of thermal stress occurring in the northern Strait of Georgia, right before salmon have to migrate through the Discovery Islands and Johnstone Strait passage. Those salmon are starting out compromised before they move into an area that is quite challenging, not only because of the currents but also because of the farms. The siting of farms in that area may be detrimental, more because they're hitting those farms right after they have left a very stressful area due to climate change. We need to be really careful about how we think about the kinds of industrial activities that we do and where we do them—and try to remove them from salmon's critical early rearing environments.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do we have—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie. There is about 10 seconds left—not much time for a question or an answer.

We'll go now to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas. Welcome back to the committee. You have the floor for six minutes or less, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Dr. Miller-Saunders.

Dr. Miller-Saunders, what do you think the impact of these viruses is on biodiversity?

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

Are you referring to biodiversity in salmon?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Yes, exactly.

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

We have discovered at least 12 new viruses infecting salmon. I can't tell you a lot about the impacts of those viruses yet, because they have only just come under study. Viruses do carry the potential to have population-level effects. The fortunate thing here in B.C. is that the only reportable virus we have is IHN, which has been shown to have devastating effects at a population level. That is an endemic virus here on our coast. PRV is also occurring in our farmed and wild salmon. No one has ever actually studied whether they have caused changes in diversity or genetic diversity, so I can't really answer that question.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I want to make sure I understand. Do you see any impact on the environment around salmon and other species? In fact, could this cause a chain reaction?

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

Is that that viruses have an impact on salmon and other species as well?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Exactly.

Could biodiversity viruses cause a chain reaction?

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

Well, there are quite a few viruses that can infect multiple different species. Some viruses are very specific to a given species. We have a Pacific salmon parvovirus that we only find in sockeye salmon, for example. Then there are other viruses like the erythorocytic necrosis virus that can be found across salmon, herring and other species and that we know can cause high levels of mortality in herring.

Yes, there is evidence that you can have epidemics occur because of viral infection. The best evidence is in herring, because we can see mass die-offs in herring. But whether viruses themselves alone have caused enough mortality to diminish the biodiversity of salmon, again, I can't answer that question.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for these clarifications.

Dr. Miller-Saunders, earlier you mentioned studies done in Norway. Do you think there are any studies that have been done outside of the country that the department could learn from?

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

Well, in fact, we're a little bit ahead of Norway when it comes to our studies of wild salmon in British Columbia, which is why we're starting to use some of the technologies that we've developed here on Norwegian wild salmon. What we do know from studies in Norway is that there really is little doubt that salmon farming has negatively impacted the wild salmon in the country. The numbers of wild salmon in most parts of the world where farming is coexisting with natural wild populations have generally been negative for the abundance and biodiversity of those species.

We are in a much different situation in Canada, where we still do have abundant wild stocks and have a diversity of species. This is exactly why we need to carefully manage to ensure that some of the same impacts that have been seen in other parts of the world don't happen here.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

Have you seen any studies outside the country, such as conservation of resources or dealing with the negative impact of viruses, particularly pathologies on Pacific salmon?

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

Yes, of course I have. Pacific salmon, other than rainbow trout, is not common in other parts of the world where farming takes place. However, Pacific salmon is farmed in Chile. They're not endemic to Chile, but they are farmed there.

Interestingly enough, if you look at the salmon farming industry in Chile, where Atlantic salmon were moved over to Chile from Norway and other parts of Europe, and Pacific salmon were moved over to Chile, mostly from Washington state, we see, along with those movements, that the vast majority of infective agents occur in the countries of origin where those fish came from. We've shown in our latest PRV study, in fact, that PRV has been introduced to Chile both from North America and from the northern Atlantic. Those movements to start those industries have resulted in the movements of infective agents along with the fish.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have 10 seconds— not much time to ask a question or get an answer. We'll get back to you again, I'm sure.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I first want to begin by highlighting the Globe and Mail article from October 2020. In it, Dr. Miller-Saunders, you say that you were told by your managers that your statements were your opinion and not those of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

My first question is for Ms. Reid and Mr. Parsons. Can you assure us that Dr. Miller-Saunders is free to speak today without any repercussions from the department?

[Rebecca Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We've said to each of the witnesses that we're asking them to speak to their area of expertise, and they are absolutely free to do so within that area of expertise.

Thank you.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Dr. Miller-Saunders, I'd like to get a better understanding of the process or what happens when scientific research reveals the impact of salmon farms on wild salmon. For example, when you were asked in 2012 by Creative Salmon to look into why their salmon were dying, what was the department's response to your findings, and were you free to publish them?

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

Back in 2012, I undertook a study with a chinook farming aquaculture company that was looking at whether jaundice anemia, as a disease that was causing overwinter mortality on farms for over a decade, was caused by environmental factors or by a virus. All of the work—the genomics, pathology and epidemiological work—pointed to the activity of a virus. When we employed molecular tools to look at all the known viruses, and identified that PRV was heavily loaded in the farm that was undergoing the disease and not found in any kind of abundance in the other farm, the co-authors of the study, who were both industry vets, were not happy with the finding and did not want the finding to be included in the paper.

No, I have not been able to publish that paper to date.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Is there a reason?

[Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders]

It's because I have to have agreement from the industry vets that the interpretation is what we can all agree on.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Ms. Reid, when Dr. Miller-Saunders reported to senior management last October that the widespread bacteria in salmon farms that was causing mouth rot was accumulating outside the salmon farms in the Discovery Islands, infecting sockeye and causing a negative population impact, I see from an ATIP that was sent to me that salmon farmers were briefed.

Was the minister also briefed on this, as she was in consultation with the seven first nations of the Discovery Islands? Would this have been important to share with the local first nations?