Fisheries Committee on May 3rd, 2021

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

You also mentioned that there appears to be, I believe you said, a high incidence of illegal activity in the clam market and that the department has been trying to get a handle on IUU: illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing.

I wanted to note that this committee approved a study on IUU months ago, but that study has been repeatedly delayed for multiple reasons: the prorogation of Parliament, and everything else on top of that.

Do you see IUU or illegal, unreported, unregulated fishing as a threat to the sustainability of fisheries and the livelihood of harvesters?

[Jim McIsaac]

Certainly. It undermines legitimate harvesters right across the board.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Lawson, can you elaborate a little more on the difference in value of your frozen at sea prawns versus bulk prawns delivered to docks for processing product—the value not just to you as a harvester, but the resulting spinoff businesses that either supply you with services or that buy from you as a harvester?

[James Lawson]

In the prawn fishery there are live boats and there are frozen boats. I'm a frozen boat.

Last year, like I said, I sold my prawn tails for what was equivalent to $15 a pound. My export frozen prawns sold for $4 a pound for mediums, $6 a pound for large, $9 a pound for XLs and $11 a pound for jumbos and extra jumbos. Just for what could be, a fishmonger in Kelowna sold a tub of jumbo prawns for $65, so it really hurts to have to sell them for $11 if there's no market for a.... By tubbing them myself, I could be getting a far superior price. I was just selling mixed prawns for that $30. If I split them by quality and size, I could be getting a far superior price to that even.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

The quality has to be maintained by the quick freezing in tubs. Do they deteriorate if there's a length of time before they come to the dock for processing?

[James Lawson]

Yes, absolutely. Having the quick freezing into water assures there's no air that's going to cause freezer burn and there's the kind of brine the prawns are in, the saltwater. They're topnotch compared to any other form of value-added processing aboard.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

They say the C and P officers can exercise discretion. Over what? If they're checking to see if you're tubbing, you're either tubbing or you're not. What else could there be?

I don't know who can take that one.

Jim, we'll give it to you.

[Jim McIsaac]

We're baffled as well, right? The inform and educate, we can understand, but if discretion means they can decide whether they're going to enforce this the way they have reinterpreted the regulation.... That's my understanding of this discretion. That means you're at risk if you're harvesting and tubbing and they decide to come on board and check.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Lawson, being on the water, hopefully you could answer this.

This question actually goes back a couple of studies. Is the prawn fishery mainly an owner-operator driven fishery, or are we dealing with people owning the licences, etc., who have never set foot in the water?

[James Lawson]

It's all fisheries. It's a big mix.

For instance, I do not own my licence. I lease out of the PICFI program put on by the federal government. I do know owner-operators and I do know people who strictly lease. Lease costs can be very high. Not this season, but in seasons past, they could go for as high as $60,000 a lease for a season. You think about that kind of overhead, plus your bait, plus your fuel, plus your food, and then you're not getting value for your product because you can't self-process and value add aboard. It's a really steep hill to climb.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do the quick math for me, if you would, please. What price per pound do you get when you sell a tub of prawns, and how much of that, if you're leasing, would go to the owner?

[James Lawson]

A lot of times lessors are companies, and they expect you not to tub their prawns. They will expect all the product from their lease licence. Some guys will fly under the radar to try and get a little extra money out of it. But it is expected, if you're leasing, you will sell to their market, so you may not even have the option.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That goes back to an earlier question I asked—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Before you go to that, I believe Ms. Orr had her hand raised. I don't know if you saw that or—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Yes, I see that. Thank you, Mr Chair.

Ms. Orr.

[Emily Orr]

Just quickly, I wanted to point out that most of the harvest effort controls that are our fishery regulations were promoted by industry itself. The harvesters, for the most part, are very protective that those regulations are followed. Any violations, such as double-hauling or fishing outside of the set time or retention of undersized prawns, is very offensive to most harvesters. It's important to note that because this fishery is very important to the people who make their livelihoods from it.

When we talk about C and P officers using discretion, my understanding is that if a C and P officer were to encounter a vessel that was, for example, in violation of other regulations and there was a clear defiance of the regulations in multiple ways, they may utilize that discretion to put forward charges for that reason. But in terms of this particular issue, obviously, as we've discussed, it's very difficult to understand what that discretion relates to.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

I want to go back, then, actually, to my first question. Mr. Lawson suggests that there's an obligation on the part of the fishers to sell all of their product to a processor and that some may go the tubbing route to make a few extra dollars to add to their bottom lines. It sounds like there is the possibility that there's been some pressure on the DFO to take this route from people who stand to gain if, in fact, the fishers have no alternative but to deliver all their product to a processor.

Does anybody care to comment on that?

Mr. Atkins.

[Michael Atkins]

I haven't heard any pressure coming from the processors, so I don't see that as the avenue.

Others are welcome to jump in.

[James Lawson]

I know that a couple of seasons ago I was fishing out of Pender Harbour. There is a drive-down dock there, and docks at homes. There's a plant there. The guys who leased licences from the plant had to deliver there to ensure that their bait supply kept coming, and they got $7 a pound. The guys who could drive away with their product as owner-operators got $15, so....

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

I will advise the committee that we've gone through the complete round. We have about six minutes left. I was going to suggest we do a one-and-a-half-minute question for each of the four parties if everybody is okay with that, and I'll use the chair's prerogative to say that everybody is okay with it.

I'm going to do it a little bit differently. I'm going to start with Madam Gill for a minute and a half, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As a final question, I'd like to know if the witnesses think this is the right time to announce such news to the industry, when it's already been a year since the COVID-19 pandemic began. Doesn't it also undermine the industry to make such an announcement now?

I am not saying, however, that the announcement should necessarily be made later. What are your thoughts on that?

My question is for all of the witnesses.

[Jim McIsaac]

It's terrible timing, absolutely.