Fisheries Committee on May 10th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 30 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and motions adopted on October 19, 2020, and April 21, 2021, the committee is meeting on its study of the state of the Pacific salmon.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021, and therefore members can attend in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application. I believe the only ones we have in the room today are the clerks.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

For those participating virtually, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either “Floor”, “English” or “French”. With the latest Zoom version, you may now speak in the language of your choice without the need to select the corresponding language channel.

You will also notice that the platform’s “raise hand” feature is now in a more easily accessed location on the main toolbar should you wish to speak or alert the chair. I will remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, it is very important that you have your mike on mute.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

Today we have, as an individual, Richard Beamish, retired research scientist; from the Nuu-chah-nulth Seafood Limited Partnership, Larry Johnson, president; from the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council, Eric Angel, fisheries program manager; from Omega Pacific Hatchery Inc., Carol Schmitt, president; and, from the Thornton Creek Enhancement Society, Dave Hurwitz, hatchery manager.

We will now proceed with opening remarks. We'll start off with Mr. Beamish for five minutes or less, but I will say, members, that when our witnesses are finished speaking and we get to questioning, please identify who you are putting the question to.

Mr. Beamish, when you're ready, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Dr. Richard Beamish, Research Scientist (Retired), As an Individual]

Can people hear me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes.

[Dr. Richard Beamish]

Am I ready to go?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes. Your five minutes have started.

[Dr. Richard Beamish]

Thank you.

My message is that there is an international Pacific salmon emergency and a need to see a bigger picture. There were unprecedented declines in Pacific salmon abundances throughout the entire north Pacific in 2020. The total commercial catch by all countries was the lowest in 30 years. The total catch of all species was 605,000 metric tons, and that's a 38% decrease from the average for the past decade.

In British Columbia, the total commercial catch in 2019 and 2020 was the lowest in history. The average for both years was 5,200 metric tons, which is just 7.5% of the average annual catches in the 1970s. The unexpected poor catches in 2019 and 2020 extended north throughout all of southeast Alaska. The total abundances of sockeye salmon produced in the Fraser River were the lowest in history in 2019 and 2020.

Looking across the Pacific, in Japan virtually all salmon catches are chum salmon produced in hatcheries. Beginning in 2010, catches started to decline from a recent 10-year average of about 221,000 metric tons to just 59,000 metric tons in 2019, which is a shocking 73% decline. The releases of chum fry from Japanese hatcheries over this period really did not change much, showing that the collapse of their catches resulted from declines in ocean survival and not from a shortage of juveniles.

In Russia, the commercial catch of all species in 2020 declined 33% from the recent 10–year average. The surprise reduction in catch in 2020 was sufficiently alarming that their government organized an international virtual conference about a month ago, in English, to consider explanations for the decline and expectations for the future. I was invited to give the opening presentation, which will be published in a Russian journal.

There is a principle in ecology that the abundance of plants and animals that produce large numbers of seeds or babies is determined by the available habitat, and not by the number of seeds or babies. As you know, salmon produce a large number of babies, and the available habitat is mostly the ocean. There now is solid published evidence that once salmon are in the ocean, their abundance is mostly determined in the first months.

The large-scale declines in British Columbia in 2019 and 2020 and throughout the north Pacific in 2020 must result from a common mechanism. A mechanism could be that fewer salmon grow faster and more quickly to be able to store the energy needed to survive the first ocean winter. A possible explanation for the collapse is that a changing climate has resulted in a reduced capacity of the coastal ocean to support salmon.

The emergency is that we now need to understand the mechanisms that regulate salmon abundance in the ocean if we are to understand the future of Pacific salmon. I believe that we have the researchers and technologies we need from around the north Pacific to make the needed discoveries if we could find a way to work together as an international team.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that. There's a little time left over.

Now we'll go to Mr. Johnson for five minutes or less, please.

[Larry Johnson, President, Nuu-chah-nulth Seafood Limited Partnership]

Thank you.

My name is Larry Johnson, and I am the president of Nuu-chah-nulth Seafood Limited Partnership. Our shareholders are the Ditidaht First Nation, the Huu-ay-aht First Nations, the Kyuquot and Checleseht First Nations, the Uchucklesaht Tribe government, and the Ucluelet First Nation.

NSLP is a commercial fishing enterprise that offers fisheries management support to the shareholding nations, their fishers and entrepreneurs in various aspects of fisheries development. I want to focus today on saying that there are nations that support sustainable salmon farming. They believe that marine salmon farming and wild salmon can coexist and be mutually beneficial.

The state of the Pacific salmon is, in fact, in deep trouble for many reasons.

My story here today about fish farms goes back to 1995. I started off as a councillor for my nation. Fish farms were a bad word back in those days when I got involved in the mid-nineties. As a matter of fact, I led our hereditary chiefs on a declaration to the kick fish farms out of our traditional territory.

We had concerns like everyone else. I didn’t actually have my own mind made up. I kind of toed the line, much like a lot of people in this province. We took it upon ourselves to ask about what the concerns were. Our chiefs talked about a lot of things that others are talking about, like what happens to the bottom of these farms after the farms are gone. What happens if they escape? What happens about sea lice? What about chemicals that are used? What about safety plans? There were all kinds of questions.

As a councillor, I embarked on communications. We got answers, and I relayed the answers to our chiefs. In our nation, we have eight chiefs. I still recall that even though we answered the questions, they were still skeptical. One of the chiefs spoke up and asked about 50 years from now. What if we actually find out that we were wrong and we missed the boat? What's next?

I think it's really hard for fish farms to work in B.C. because there's fear in B.C. There are not enough treaties and there is not enough certainty for industry and first nations in B.C.

I participated on the indigenous and multi-stakeholder advisory body and technical working groups through the aboriginal coordinating committee that is hosted by FNFC so that I could participate and make sure that treaty nation voices were heard. We did our homework. We separated business from politics in our treaty nations by creating business arms that focus on straight business. It has to follow the strategic plan of the nation, of course, in building sustainable business and in our access to the ocean resources. We wanted it to be diversified with aquaculture.

I think aquaculture is a great opportunity for our nations economically. It provides jobs, revenue and profits to the nation, so that the nation can do what it likes and create services for its people. It helps the region. It boosts our local economy while contributing to the greater economy. It also supports a blue economy through aquaculture development.

How do we do this? We do it through partnerships. My company has done a lot of good work in partnerships. As a matter fact, we won the Business Partnership of the Year award through aboriginal achievement.

I want to talk a little bit about partnerships from my nation's perspective, because forestry is good example of building relationships. It takes a long time to build relationships. It takes a long time to build trust, but once you get those foundational things, then economic reconciliation is achievable. I think it's not something that you do and just let go. You have to keep a relationship going. It's a pathway forward. It does leave a path for others to follow.

That's the goal of our company. We have two nations working in shellfish aquaculture, kelp aquaculture and finfish aquaculture. Four of our five shareholder nations are modern-day treaty nations and have self-governing rights and law-making authorities. They'll decide what kind of economic opportunities they have within their traditional territories.

They're focused on building their nation and building an economy so they can draw their people back to their homelands. They want to enhance salmon. I think we can do a better job on production and survival rates so that we can carry on with enhanced salmon. We participate in commercial fisheries, aquaculture, including shellfish, kelp and salmon farming.

I think the one big thing that's totally missing from everyone's plan is predator management, and I think we really need to deal with that.

Again, I just want to re-emphasize that there are nations that support sustainable salmon farming because they believe that marine salmon farming and wild salmon can coexist and be mutually beneficial. I am pretty sure that this has been happening for several decades already.

I have a bit of an ask here that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johnson. You have gone over your time. Hopefully anything you didn't get to say will come out in the line of questioning following the presentations by witnesses.

We'll now go to Mr. Angel for five minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Dr. Eric Angel, Fisheries Program Manager, Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to present today.

My name is Eric Angel. I am the fisheries program manager for the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council on the west coast of Vancouver Island.

Our fisheries program is known as “Uu-a-thluk”, which means “taking care of” in the Nuu-chah-nulth language.

Salmon are integral to the culture and the economy of the Nuu-chah-nulth nations, and that's been the case for thousands of years. The courts have recognized the importance of salmon to Nuu-chah-nulth, most recently in the B.C. Court of Appeal decision in the Ahousaht fishing rights case.

The Court of Appeal also recognized how important it is for government to work with the Nuu-chah-nulth nations in implementing their fishing rights. That's what I want to talk to you about today—the value to government and to society more generally of sharing the responsibility for making decisions that will affect our well-being long into the future.

The crisis facing Pacific salmon today has been decades in the making. It's a complex problem with multiple causes.

You've heard from Dr. Beamish about the ocean survival issues. There is degradation of salmon habitat on land, overfishing, potentially ocean-based aquaculture, predation by marine mammals and overcapacity from too many fish in the ocean.

You also heard from earlier witnesses about ways to address problems: restoring salmon habitat, building resilience to climate change impacts, reducing fishing pressures, improving monitoring and enforcement, moving salmon farming operations to land and increasing hatchery production and enhancement. These are all important measures and they surely can help, but we've been doing a lot of them for a long time already, and no one approach is going to be sufficient.

From our perspective, the most important thing the government and DFO can do to address the decline of Pacific salmon would be to recognize the passion, knowledge and capacity that exist in first nations in coastal communities throughout B.C. and to work closely and directly with those first nations in coastal communities on a regional basis to decide how best to use the financial and human resources that exist and that are being made available.

On the west coast of Vancouver Island we have an organization that is fit for that purpose. The West Coast Aquatic Governance Board was brought into being over 20 years ago by the Nuu-chah-nulth nations working with regional, federal, provincial governments and stakeholders in the area. There are representatives from everyone with an interest and a role to play in promoting the health of salmon and salmon ecosystems: first nations; the regional, provincial and federal governments; commercial and recreational fishers; salmon aquaculture firms; forestry companies; tourism operations; hatcheries; and environmental NGOs.

Today the board continues to operate, running salmon harvest and stewardship round tables in each of the major fishing areas on the west coast of the Island. These round tables reduce conflict among everyone involved. They promote win-win solutions for the participants and they are highly cost-effective.

For many years now, the governance board and the round tables have operated on a shoestring budget of a few tens of thousands of dollars each year. Recently, Nuu-chah-nulth nations, working through West Coast Aquatic, submitted a proposal to DFO to use a small portion of what remains of the Pacific salmon treaty mitigation fund to support the operations of the board. We're asking that we be able to do that or that they commit a very modest amount of the new Pacific salmon strategy monies to supporting West Coast Aquatic on a long-term basis.

It's important to understand that there are opportunities here and that this isn't simply a crisis. For decades we've had an economy built around maximizing the extraction of resources, including salmon, from rural regions of B.C. That isn't sustainable, and that should be clear to everyone by now, but it doesn't mean our salmon-based economies have to collapse and that coastal communities and first nations in particular have to suffer the consequences. We can shift our focus to restoring salmon and salmon ecosystems. We can build a restoration economy that creates long-lasting jobs and brings salmon back to health. This will take generations, but we can start to see the benefits immediately, and the Nuu-chah-nulth nations are ready to lead the way.

Nuu-chah-nulth co-founded West Coast Aquatic because we know that the only way forward is to work with our neighbours, the newcomers. You can see this in the Nuu-chah-nulth commitment to iisaak, respect for all living things; and to hishuk’ish tsawalk, the interconnectedness of everything. We just need the government and DFO to recognize what is already here. If we do that, if we build on our strengths and work together instead of against one another, we can tell our children and our children's children that we did the right thing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, sir.

We'll now go to Mr. Hurwitz, hatchery manager, for five minutes or less, please.

[Dave Hurwitz, Hatchery Manager, Thornton Creek Enhancement Society]

Thank you.

My name is Dave Hurwitz. After leaving university, I commercially fished the west coast of Vancouver Island for 17 years. For the past six years, I've been the manager of the Thornton Creek Hatchery, located in Ucluelet on the west coast of Vancouver Island and operated by the Thornton Creek Enhancement Society.

What does a hatchery like ours do?

Each year we spawn, rear and release between 350,000 and over 1,000,000 chinook, chum and coho fry into five streams. We undertake numerous creek walks and snorkel surveys on 10 systems to enumerate salmon returns for DFO's stock assessment division. We also provide DFO with DNA, otoliths, scales and associated biodata for every fish we spawn.

We foster stewardship by delivering the Salmon in the Classroom program in local schools through educational hatchery tours for thousands of visitors and students each year and through open house events. We partner with and provide training for local first nations, local organizations and volunteers.

We participate in the Clayoquot and Barkley roundtables and facilitate West Coast Aquatic, our regional human-wildlife coexistence group, and I am a member of the salmon enhancement and habitat board that is advisory to DFO.

We're presently undertaking a master's project using PIT and coded wire tagging to study west coast Vancouver Island chinook survival, and we have fundraised $70,000 to undertake this research.

Oh, and we repair and maintain a boat, trucks, power lines, an access road, a dam, water supply, three buildings, and incubation, rearing and brood collection equipment. We purchase drysuits, wading gear, safety gear, fish feed, insurance, telephone/Internet and fuel as we travel long distances on gravel roads and by sea to do our work. We have a dedicated crew of five underpaid seasonal workers and several directors and volunteers who are the heartbeat of our organization.

Each year for the past three decades we've received $158,000 from the Government of Canada to operate our hatchery. There is no way that the money Canada provides is enough for hatcheries like ours to do our work. We all rely on donations, grants, partnerships and volunteers.

Inflation and aging infrastructure threaten every hatchery's ability to undertake more salmon enhancement and more tagging and research. Our hatchery is not alone in this regard. The Tofino Hatchery receives only $8,000 per year from DFO to rebuild salmon stocks in remote streams in Clayoquot Sound. This is barely enough to cover the cost of insurance for the vehicle, boat, the building, and liability, and a bit for phone and electricity. Their money is gone before they start.

Science and technology, especially DNA science, teaches us more each year about how to best manage and enhance salmon stocks for resilience. The mass marking of Canadian hatchery fish should be an imperative. We need to be able to measure the success of enhancement and habitat restoration. Mass marking allows for selective fisheries that protect wild stocks while allowing for harvest of hatchery fish. It also provides hatcheries with the ability to ensure genetic integrity when spawning fish from small populations. Mass marking identifies the wildness of a run, allowing individual watersheds to be enhanced to their optimum.

If we were permitted to use DNA parental-based tagging developed by DFO, the cost of mass marking would drop dramatically and would provide more information for science. Most hatcheries have been collecting the necessary data for several years to undertake this paradigm-shifting method of measuring age and determining the origin of hatchery fish.

I am flummoxed by the idea of a Pacific salmon secretariat and restoration centre of expertise. What I do know is that through hatchery enhancement, habitat restoration, research and science-based stock management, we'll improve the state of our salmon.

I also know that DFO has been deeply gutted over the past 15 years. Important positions haven't been filled due to funding cutbacks, and valuable expertise is being lost to attrition. Our incredible community adviser has been covering two positions. Enforcement can use more resources. More watersheds require surveys and biodata collection for stock assessment. The regional DFO staff are our partners, and, like us, they need more funding for boots on the ground.

If we can ensure that the existing hatchery programs are funded to succeed, funding new community hatcheries in critical areas will be a worthy investment in salmon. Now is a crucial time to act on Canada's obligation to conserve our salmon runs. Hatchery enhancement is an effective tool in the tool kit required to rebuild salmon stocks.

Canada absolutely needs to support hatchery enhancement with cost-of-inflation funding increases at the very least, and funding for the mass marking of hatchery salmon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, sir. You're right on time.

We'll now try Ms. Schmitt. You have five minutes or less, please.

[Carol Schmitt, President, Omega Pacific Hatchery Inc.]

Thank you, Chair and committee members for the opportunity to provide information regarding the state of the salmon.

My name is Carol Schmitt, and last fall marked 40 consecutive years that I've raised chinook salmon. I'm a graduate of the BCIT fish wildlife program, having an employment history with provincial fisheries, federal fisheries, Union Carbide fish farms, as a Sea-1 aquafarms hatchery manager and through a Pacific biological station chinook incubation contract. In 1987 we built our privately run Omega Pacific Hatchery, and I raised thousands of adult chinooks and millions of S1 smolts for aquaculture, which included 25 years of growing large chinook in ocean.

In 2009, we raised 600,000 chinook S1 smolts for 13 releases for enhancement projects. Data shows that all S1 releases continue to have higher marine survivals and adult returns than S0 smolts. I've written a paper on freshwater hatchery management practices that could be incorporated to rebuild wild stock of chinook. It was presented at the Aquaculture Canada conference as well as at the Northwest Fish Culture Conference in 2019 among other natural freshwater rearing programs to increase chinook survival.

My address to the committee is regarding the chinook salmon decline. Stocks of chinook salmon continue to decline, with many reduced to fewer than 100 fish. Rebuilding efforts have not increased the stocks because DFO's enhancement smolts released as S0s have low marine survivals and too few adult returns. We've demonstrated a solution to rebuild the chinook numbers. Omega Pacific Hatchery S1 chinook smolts have increased marine survivals, with more adults returning to spawn, and have been shown to effectively rebuild the stock.

Our one example, Phillips River, last fall had 3,500 adults return and is now listed in the 2021 hatchery production plans as “enhancement target met in monitoring phase”. This was largely due to Omega's four release groups of 45,000 S1s, whereas in the previous 25 years of releasing many groups of 100,000 S0s, the adult returns to the river had remained at 200 to 500 fish, which is similar to most streams in DFO's enhancement program, despite 40 years of enhancement releases totalling millions of S0 smolts.

A 50,000-smolt release by Omega Pacific as S1s had 500 to 1,350 adult spawning returns, compared to the S0s for the west coast, which numbered 65 to 100, and for the Salish Sea, where between 200 and 600 adults returned.

My presentation summarizes the results for our smolts compared to S0s. However, because of the short time frame, I will first give you my closing recommendations.

My recommendation is that we establish a chinook special project committee with five to seven members, with myself being one who would help organize, with the authority to implement a plan that prioritizes chinook stocks to be raised as S1s this fall.

Use our hatchery's available space and assess capabilities at other hatcheries to raise S1s using Omega's procedures. Put together a budget and deliverables for five-year and 10-year periods to rebuild chinook stocks, including the Fraser River, Clayoquot Sound, the Nahmint River, Henderson Lake, the Chemainus River and others.

The rationale for this action is that DFO's enhancement program is in its 44th year and continues to release mostly fry or S0s. DFO has our S1 results ongoing for seven years, and over 40 letters from first nations and organizations such as the B.C. Wildlife Federation have been sent to DFO. In the October 2018 House of Commons standing committee, M-154 and recommendation number 16 both request that DFO incorporate the use of S1 and the Omega hatchery to increase chinook populations. Despite this, DFO continues with their S0 program, and Omega's proposed projects have been taken to DFO's facilities to raise fry or S0, leaving Omega in its third year without any enhancement projects. A team of experts is required to ensure that the best actions are taken to rebuild the chinook stocks.

In summary, chinook's future existence is a serious issue. The majority of chinook returns to rivers are too few in number to naturally rebuild. This will not be resolved through mass marking, fishing closures, parental tagging, more studies or continuing to release S0s.

Hatchery intervention and releasing S1 smolt is the most effective tool to increase numbers, so I would recommend a Chinook special projects committee independent of SEP to put in place a plan starting immediately that prioritizes the stocks to effectively increase the numbers, and commencing this fall. I did have a number of slides to show you with some of our results, so I'll just keep on talking until I run out of time.

Have I run out of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes, you've gone over time a little. I thought you were just about finished.

We'll now go to questioning by our committee members. We've got five witnesses here today, and you'll make better use of your time if you identify who you're asking the question to rather than asking a question and waiting for someone to start to answer.

We'll start off with Mr. Bragdon for six minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Schmitt, the smolt transfer to your operation from DFO was cancelled. Has anyone at DFO explained why?

[Carol Schmitt]

Are you referring to the Henderson Lake project that was supposed to commence last fall?

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Yes.

[Carol Schmitt]

When we started to talk about Henderson Lake, we approached DFO with the Uchucklesaht tribe and asked them what they required. Within two and a half years we had everything in place and a standard IT permit. They had taken the eggs at the hatchery, which was Nitinat, because Henderson is down to 25 returning fish, so we needed fish eggs to restart the run.

Previously eggs had been put into the system, but none for 16 years. However, when we applied, the department said that first of all they didn't support an S1 strategy. Then they brought up a bunch of reasons that had already been discussed and resolved, and in the final minute, they said they were going to keep the eggs and do a fry release because it's one less move to a hatchery. The IT committee was waiting for SEP to say they had approved the release location, but they wouldn't provide that to the IT committee.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

It sounds like you have developed a very successful program that seems to be showing some good results, so hopefully we'll see that continue to grow and be able to help replenish at-risk stocks of salmon throughout the west coast.

I know I've got several witnesses, but I want to go to Mr. Beamish.

It was nearly 10 years ago, I believe, in 2011, that you appeared before the Cohen commission and presented a theory that mature wild Pacific salmon could and did cause wild salmon smolts to become infected with sea lice independent of any harm caused by farmed salmon.

Do you believe wild adult salmon are responsible for infecting wild juvenile salmon with sea lice? Are you still of that persuasion, Mr. Beamish?

[Dr. Richard Beamish]

I don't remember saying anything like that.

What I am presenting today—hopefully everyone got the message—is that we really need to see a much bigger picture and we need to understand what is regulating the production of salmon in the ocean.

After Russia got their unexpectedly poor catch last year, they are now taking the issue seriously. They have determined that 2021 is the year of the salmon in Russia, and they've put together a five-year program not only to come up with the explanation for the decline but to look at the future.

I'm sorry. I honestly don't remember anything, but I'm old and I retired 10 years ago.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

No problem. Thank you, Mr. Beamish.

I want to follow up with you respecting your years of service and knowledge in this field.

What are some of the actions that can and should be taken right now in 2021 to restore the Pacific salmon stocks? We're hearing so much testimony from a wide variety of very qualified witnesses, but really, for tangible action to be taken that is practicable and doable without devastating any community's employment, what are some practical first steps that you feel would render the most results?

[Dr. Richard Beamish]

It's a perfect question; it's a common audience question. Obviously, it's difficult to answer.

I suppose what I want to say is that we really need to work together as a team, both within British Columbia and internationally.

I think there are things that can be done. Very quickly I'll tell you that, for example, with regard to the South Thompson chinook salmon, there are 12 or so populations, and they represent about 30% of the adult chinook coming back to the Strait of Georgia and the Fraser River. Those chinook salmon enter the Strait of Georgia six to eight weeks after all of the other chinook salmon, so they are entering an ocean ecosystem that essentially has a different carrying capacity, and they are benefiting from that.

If we really understood the mechanisms responsible, then we, as a community, could begin to focus on what we can do when we have changes in the coastal ecosystems, and that's what's going on.

The reason we're seeing reductions in Japan or up into southeast Alaska is that our coastal ecosystems no longer have the capacity. If you understood what the mechanisms are.... I think that they are as simple as this: The juveniles that grow faster and quicker survive better. Once we understand that, I'm sure that we have the ability and the technologies to maximize the survival in the ocean.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Beamish. I'll go to Mr. Johnson quickly.

Mr. Johnson, what would you recommend? From your perspective, what do you feel are some of the things that we should be acting quickly upon that could achieve the best results in restoring health to the Pacific salmon?

[Larry Johnson]

Well, I think it's a combination of things. Production needs to be up. Survival rates need be to examined thoroughly. We really need to do something about balancing nature, and that's the pinniped issue. We need to get pinnipeds down to a number that's better for our fry and for our brood stock.