Fisheries Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order. Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 34 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on April 28, 2021, the committee is meeting on the study of the state of the Pacific salmon.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Therefore, members can attend in person in the room or remotely by using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will show only the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either “Floor”, “English” or “French”. You will also notice the platform's “raise hand” feature on the main toolbar should you wish to speak or to alert the chair.

Before speaking, please click on the microphone to unmute yourself. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself.

I will remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for today. We have the Honourable Bernadette Jordan, Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard. With the minister, I believe we have a number of departmental officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Minister, I don't know if you want to actually recognize who's here with you. Then we'll start your opening remarks.

You can proceed when you're ready.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is great to be here with all of you again. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you all today.

First of all, I would like to acknowledge that I'm coming to you from Wolastoqiyik and Mi'kma'ki, the traditional unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq people.

Joining me are several of my officials, including Timothy Sargent, the deputy minister of Fisheries and Oceans; Dr. Niall O'Dea, senior assistant deputy minister, strategic policy; Jean-Guy Forgeron, senior assistant deputy minister for fisheries and harbour management; Rebecca Reid, regional director general, Pacific region; Arran McPherson, assistant deputy minister, ecosystems and ocean science; Alexandra Dostal, assistant deputy minister of aquatic ecosystems; Hugo Pagé, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer; and Andy Smith, deputy commissioner, shipbuilding and material.

Given that this is my first appearance since budget 2021 was tabled in the House, I would like to talk about some of the investments that are specific to Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Today I will discuss the budget and focus on the key themes of conserving and protecting our marine resources and supporting coastal communities and economies. Over the next five years, DFO and the Coast Guard will receive significant investments that will allow the department to continue its important work in these areas.

I will also be happy to take your questions on the topic of Pacific salmon.

Our government knows that the health of our oceans is intrinsically linked to the health of our economy and the health of our people. One way we can conserve and protect our marine resources is by establishing a network of marine protected areas and other effective area-based conservation measures. MPAs are proven to be a way to help aquatic species, habitats and ecosystems recover from human-induced stresses such as overfishing, natural resource extraction and pollution.

When our government took office in 2015, less than 1% of our oceans were protected. Today that figure stands at almost 14%, with a goal of increasing this to 25% by 2025, working towards 30% by 2030. To help Canada meet its ambitious marine conservation targets, budget 2021 earmarked $976.8 million over the next five years. This investment will be used to expand our network of MPAs on all three coasts by working closely with indigenous, provincial and territorial partners and local communities to better protect and manage vulnerable areas. Ultimately, this work will benefit the broader marine environment, coastal communities and local economies.

Budget 2021 also signals a strong federal response to address the serious decline of Pacific salmon on the west coast. Despite extensive conservation measures in recent years, climate change and threats caused by humans, including deteriorating habitat; contaminants; illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing; changes in how land and water are used and international fishing pressures have negatively affected Pacific salmon at every stage of their life cycle.

Currently, 50 different Pacific salmon populations are being considered for listing under the Species at Risk Act or are pending assessment by the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada. The reasons are numerous, complex and incredibly concerning. When unforeseen events such as the Big Bar landslide occur, the risks to vulnerable salmon stocks are magnified even further. Bold, sustained and coordinated action is needed to stabilize, protect and rebuild Pacific salmon for the communities that depend on sustainable fisheries and the ecosystems that support them.

Last April, as many of you know, our government announced a historic investment in Pacific salmon. This unprecedented $647-million investment is the single most transformative investment the government has ever made towards saving salmon. It is aimed at stopping the declines now, while helping to rebuild populations over the longer term. Our government will be taking a collaborative approach that focuses on strengthening partnerships with provinces and territories, first nations, industries, organizations and others who are already doing so much to protect and conserve salmon.

We must bring key partners to the table and identify and prioritize actions to support healthy salmon. I know this investment comes on the heels on the committee's study on this important issue. I want to thank the members for their work on this file. I look forward to hearing your recommendations. I'm confident that this investment will provide a coordinated response to help the recovery of Pacific salmon to support the many communities, harvesters and businesses that rely on the health of these stocks.

Mr. Chair, budget 2021 will give my department the financial means it needs to meet our marine conservation targets, address declines of Pacific salmon and protect aquatic species at risk. It will also provide the Coast Guard with additional funding to prevent and mitigate environmental incidents on the water through an extension of the emergency towing vessels located on Canada's west coast.

Budget 2021 will also help coastal communities build back better and stronger from the COVID-19 pandemic. This includes investing significantly in small craft harbours.

In 2019, the commercial fishing industry had landings valued at almost $3.7 billion and employed more than 45,000 workers. Even during the hardships of the past year, fish and seafood were among the largest single food commodities exported by Canada. Budget 2021 includes $300 million to repair, renew and replace infrastructure at small craft harbours over the next two years. This will help shore up the future for the industry by providing safe, functional harbours while at the same time creating well-paid jobs for Canadians.

We are also strengthening our commitment to marine safety for indigenous coastal communities by ensuring that communities can get the boats and equipment they need to keep people safe in local waters.

Mr. Chair, these investments in coastal communities are a down payment on our future that will pay dividends in the months and years ahead for Canada while the world recovers from this global pandemic.

Whether we’re talking about conserving and protecting our marine resources or supporting coastal communities and economies, all of this work is interconnected. Ultimately, budget 2021 is an investment in Canadian families and communities. These are investments that underscore how our nation’s economic prosperity and the long-term health of our environment can and must go hand in hand.

As minister, I’m confident that the funding I outlined today will position Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard to deliver on key priorities that contribute to a stronger maritime economy, healthier oceans and more resilient coastal communities.

Now I’m pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Minister, and again, thank you for your appearance here today and to the group of staff members you brought along with you.

Before I go to questions, I would like to welcome Mr. Trudel back to this committee. As well, I know Mr. Zimmer is filling in for somebody, and he's in the committee room, so I welcome Bob to this committee.

I'd also like to give a big welcome to a hero of mine to some degree, Mr. Simms, a fellow Newfoundland MP and someone who has cheered this committee and been a part of this committee for quite some time. It's good to have him back to fill in for one of the members today. I'm sure he'll be a great contributor to the debate as we go forward this evening.

I will now go to Mr. Bragdon for six minutes or less.

Go ahead, please, for your question.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister. It's good to see you today.

My first question, Minister, is that no matter the issue, no matter what we study, what fisheries we look into and which coast the witnesses are coming from, we hear again and again that you and your department have completely neglected to consult with them properly before making industry-changing decisions. This creates tremendous instability at a time when we already have great uncertainty with COVID-19. This continued instability in their lives causes questions about their future livelihoods. It's hard to make future decisions about an area they are passionate about and have served and want to continue to make their living in.

Why do you and this department continue to insist on keeping those most affected by your decisions away from the decision-making table? We heard this whether from indigenous stakeholders or the commercial fishery stakeholders and whether it related to the prawn harvesters, east coast lobster fishers or fish farmers in B.C. There's been a tremendous echo from coast to coast regarding the lack of true consultation or being part of the process and the decision-making process and finding out only after the fact.

Minister, do you have any explanation for this?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to say that I would disagree with that assertion. We consult widely with a number of different stakeholders as we make decisions. We also make decisions based on science.

Over the past year I have met countless times with first nations communities, with the industry, with commercial harvesters, with stakeholder groups and with environmental organizations. Actually, probably one of the largest parts of my job is meeting with stakeholders and listening to their concerns and their comments. A lot of the policy we develop comes from those consultations.

I will also say that we do meet regularly with provincial and territorial partners with regard to fisheries management decisions. However, many of the decisions we have to make are based on the science regarding where the stocks are and what is happening within the sector.

For example, during COVID-19 we had some really tough decisions to make with regard to the opening of seasons—

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you—

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

—but we made sure we were able to do that, because we listened to the harvesters.

Thank you.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

We have a lot of questions we want to cover with you today.

For example, our prawn harvesters in B.C. have been quite negatively impacted by a recent interpretation of what was already an existing regulation. That change of interpretation meant unbelievable instability for those harvesters and a lot of questions. We heard overwhelming testimony related to that. They don't understand the basis for the decision or why it came about. We really couldn't find a whole lot of clarity regarding the rationale behind that decision.

One of the things that was always being said was that the interpretation meant that the product had to be readily available to be inspected. Well, if I were able to produce for you prawns so that you could check their size and number within two minutes or less, would you consider that “readily available”?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would say that we have actually engaged with industry, which is why we were able to come up with a solution for this season. That is why we are continuing to engage with them to make sure that we find the right way forward for the prawn tubbing issue. You know, this is something I am committed to making sure that we have solved, and we are actively engaged in making sure that we do that.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Minister, who decided that we should reinterpret the regulation? Was it you or the department?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

This is actually a regulation that has been in place for many years. As I said, we recognized that it was a challenge for the harvesters this year. That is why we worked with them to find the solution. We are now continuing on with that engagement to find the long-term solution for the harvesters, because we know how important this industry is and we know how important this issue is, and we are committed to making sure it gets solved.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Minister, because they've been very clear that they need to make sure that certainty comes from the minister and comes from your department so that they can make long-term plans. The ambiguity is causing further uncertainty, and temporary measures won't suffice.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would say—

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

On to the other issue—

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm sorry. Can I answer that?

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Sure, quickly.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would say that we are going to find a long-term solution in collaboration with the industry.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

As a result of your December 17 decision regarding the future of aquaculture in the Discovery Islands, more than seven million healthy juvenile Atlantic salmon have been euthanized and layoffs have started towards an ultimate loss of about 1,500 jobs. How does this align with the government's blue economy strategy that you have so fervently promoted?

Furthermore, did you consult with your provincial counterparts, which we heard testimony from here, in advance of this decision's being rolled out? Did you consult in advance with the first nations communities that were being directly affected by this decision so that they could have meaningful transition plans in place when this decision was enacted?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I will say that this was a very difficult decision to make. It was not one I took lightly. I recognized that it was a very challenging decision for many people. I will also say that the decision was made after there was consultation with the seven first nations in that area, recognizing that aquaculture is extremely important to British Columbia—well, to many coastal communities—and recognizing that there is a way forward with it. However, we want to make sure that it is also in keeping with the first nations territories that did not feel that this was a good fit for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon.

We will now go to Mr. Hardie for six minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see you, minister and officials.

For the longest time, there's certainly been a strong feeling that having the DFO responsible for aquaculture runs in direct conflict to its obligation to employ the precautionary principle, because there has been so much evidence that suggests that aquaculture operations have been harmful, especially to some of our salmon runs. Have you made any progress on the long-standing recommendation from the Cohen commission to get responsibility for aquaculture away from the DFO?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

First of all, I would say that I have full confidence in the science that the DFO produces. There is a robust process in place when it comes to the peer-review process for aquaculture. All decisions that are made are based on the best available science, using the precautionary approach, and the aquaculture industry, while undergoing a transition on the west coast, is extremely important right across the country. It supports thousands of jobs.

The DFO has immense expertise. It makes sure that it is working in collaboration with the industry as well. I have also begun work on things like the an aquaculture act, which will provide clarity to the industry. My parliamentary secretary, Terry Beech, has been doing consultations with regard to the 2025 transition commitment. You know, we're going to continue to work with industry. We're going to continue to base our decisions on science, and I have full confidence in the department's science process.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

With regard to the major investment in Pacific salmon that was included in budget 2021, to what extent will the DFO be responsible for basically managing the programs that this funding will be supporting?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm very proud of the fact that our government has made this historic investment of $647 million in wild Pacific salmon, recognizing that this is the largest investment to help this species. However, we need to act in partnership and in collaboration with the Province of British Columbia, with Yukon, with first nations, with industry, with environmental organizations, with anglers. There are a number of groups that have great expertise in salmon. We need to bring it together, find the path forward and make a strategic investment where we do the strategic work. However, I think bringing it all together under one umbrella is going to be critical.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Explain, if you can, the role of the salmon centre of expertise. That was specifically noted in the budget as something you intend to create. What will its role be?