Fisheries Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Of course, we have not rolled out the salmon strategy yet. We are hopefully going to be doing that in the coming weeks, at least the first phase, which will be a consultation process to find out what the best ways forward are.

The centre of expertise is looking at the many people who work on the ground with salmon, who know the populations and the challenges they're facing, and we need to bring all of that under one umbrella. We need to make sure that we're not all working at cross-purposes. Everybody has the same goal, and that is to protect, conserve and grow the salmon populations. What we need to make sure we're doing is that we're all doing it in the same direction.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have one final question, and I haven't seen the chair lean forward in his usual fashion to tell me I'm over.

In the last Parliament we brought forward a fairly major study on basically sharing the wealth that comes out of the water. Just recently here in this committee we've been looking at some of the changes of ownership on the east coast. Out on the west coast there's been a long-standing call to try to identify the beneficial ownership of things like licences and quota, because the suspicion over and above the suspicion of money laundering out there is that a lot of our common resource is actually being owned and operated offshore.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

First of all, I want to thank the committee for the work they did on that study. I think it was an extremely important one to recognize the challenges being faced with regard to ownership on the west coast.

This year on the east coast we were able to enshrine owner-operator in legislation. It has taken many years for us to get to that point. We have started work on the west coast with regard to questions around foreign ownership and things like that, recognizing that DFO is currently reviewing the existing foreign ownership restrictions and gathering data. It does take time. I often say it's like unravelling a very tangled knot, but we are committed to doing that work. I believe that when we responded to the committee report, we indicated that this is something we are moving forward with right now.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have one last question, then. What is the state of our assessment of salmon stocks in British Columbia? Do we have up-to-date assessments of those stocks?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Salmon are in serious decline. I think we are seeing some populations as low as 90% down in some areas. We have almost 50 different types of salmon that are on the possible species at risk listing, so there is no time to waste in making sure that we find the right path forward.

I'm not sure, but if I could turn to my deputy, he may have more numbers with regard to what the salmon stock numbers are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll have to get that information either in print or as we go through this evening's questioning.

Mr. Trudel, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, welcome to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. It's a pleasure to speak with you today. In your opening remarks, you talked a lot about partnerships with industry. I feel that's important. As a resource, Atlantic salmon are generally doing well in Quebec. The Quebec model is quite exemplary in terms of how efficiently it's managed.

When the director general of the Fédération québécoise pour le saumon atlantique appeared before the committee two weeks ago, she talked about working with communities and fishers as well as sharing expertise, which I feel is very important. It might also serve to inspire how Pacific salmon are managed in British Columbia.

Do you and your department plan to work with experts and communities, particularly in Quebec, but also elsewhere in the world, to see what's being done to ensure the future of the species?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I will say that we recognize the job that Quebec has done with regard to salmon and their management of it, although we are seeing real declines in Atlantic salmon on the east coast as well and we know that more work needs to be done there. That's why we put in place an Atlantic salmon initiative in 2019 and 2020.

Of course, we are always open to learning from others, recognizing that the Province of Quebec has done a very good job with salmon. I have actually been in touch with Minister Lamontagne in Quebec with regard to a number of the projects that he has on his front, and he often talks about the salmon strategies there.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

As we know, jobs in the Pacific salmon industry largely depend on protecting the resource. If it's not adequately protected, people are going to be negatively affected, and that will include a loss of income and jobs.

How do you plan to protect jobs, Pacific salmon stocks and the ecosystem at the same time? How do you reconcile those three things, which I believe are truly interdependent?

Do you have a plan to protect jobs, the resource and the ecosystem?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We have now put $647 million on the table to protect wild Pacific salmon, recognizing what a critical state they are in. The last thing I think we need right now is another study. There have been multiple studies done with regard to salmon and how we best move forward. What we are doing now is putting money behind the initiatives that we know will work, including things like the B.C. SRIF program, in which we will be doubling the investment. That is a habitat restoration plan.

All of the things we put forward are actually going to support job creation as well, recognizing that this has to be an “all hands on deck” approach. The salmon are not in good shape and the stocks are in serious decline, but I'm very proud that we're putting money into making sure that we deal with this problem head-on.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to know how to the consultations went before the budget was tabled. Several witnesses who appeared before us mentioned that the department didn't consult with them before announcing how much was going to be invested.

Why did the government decide to consult with the community after tabling the budget, and not beforehand?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We had a number of conversations with a number of different organizations and groups, as well as the provinces, territories and first nations communities, around the importance of wild Pacific salmon, not only as a resource for commercial harvesters but for recreational purposes. These salmon drive an economy on the west coast, and they are also culturally significant to first nations communities. I would say that in pretty much every meeting I had with British Columbians, the state of the wild Pacific salmon stocks was the priority. We heard countless times, over and over again, that we needed to have a full-court press to make sure that we are doing everything we possibly could. That was one of the reasons we worked so hard to make sure that it was in the budget. I'm very proud that there is $647 million to address the concerns we're seeing in those declining stocks.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

If I may, I will just reiterate, people in the community expressed feelings about not being consulted before the budget was tabled. They wondered why they were consulted after the fact.

Do you have an answer for them?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I have met with countless stakeholders on the west coast, as well as with first nations. I have met continually with the Province of British Columbia on this issue. I have met with environmental organizations, with anglers and with industry. I would say that we have done an awful lot of consulting when it comes to what needed to be addressed in a wild Pacific salmon strategy.

I will also say that we have actually had very good feedback from pretty much everyone who is involved in preserving and conserving salmon. They're very happy to see that this money is coming to actually put some work into making sure that we do what we have to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, since I last checked three years ago, your Liberal government and the Harper Conservatives have spent over $19 million just in legal fees fighting the Nuu-chah-nulth people in court and denying their fishing rights. For the third time, on April 19, the higher court reaffirmed the rights of these nations to viable commercial fisheries.

Will your government and the Prime Minister finally back up your commitments to reconciliation and affirm that this government will not appeal the most recent ruling? We know you have to decide within the next couple of weeks. Will your government actually get on with the implementation of their rights so that their fishers can get back on the water and contribute to our coastal economy?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would say that Canada has been working collaboratively with the five Nuu-chah-nulth nations to advance reconciliation in the areas of collaborative governance, increased fishing access and community-based fisheries. We signed an incremental agreement with the five nations in September 2019, and we continue to work closely with them on their comprehensive reconciliation agreement.

Of course, we want to make sure that we see first nations out on the water. We are currently, as you know, Mr. Johns, reviewing the court decision, and we'll have more to say on that—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I appreciate that.

Minister, it takes a lot of documents to prepare an appeal. You would have a good idea now of whether you're going to take that ruling on and appeal it. I'm not asking this question because the Nuu-chah-nulth are satisfied with what's happening or not happening at the table. I'm asking you a question: Are you going to respect the courts instead of continuing to spend taxpayers' money fighting indigenous people in court?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We are still reviewing the decision. We are looking at it. We will have more to say on it in the near future. Our government and my department have been working very diligently to make sure that we can get fishers out on the water.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

While we're talking about indigenous fishers, do you have a safety plan in place to protect Mi'kmaq fishers who are afraid right now? They've told me that they are afraid to go out to exercise their right to a moderate livelihood because your government has failed to protect them. Do you have a plan in place to protect them?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You know, this is an issue that is extremely challenging. There is no question that it's complex. Nobody wants to see a repeat of what happened last year with first nations on the east coast exercising their moderate livelihood right. We of course will have C and P officers on the water. We will also have the Coast Guard. We will also have RCMP officers who deployed to that area if needed. These measures are all put in place to protect all fishers and make sure that people are able to work safely.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I don't think that's giving them the assurances that they need.

Minister, you were asked earlier about the public data registry that would show who owns the quota of fisheries on the west coast and sharing the benefits. Why has that information not been released? This has been a couple of years in the works. This is really important. We want to know who owns the quota, and we also want to know about foreign ownership. It's not just about quota. You're seeing how foreign owners are creeping in on the processing side. We heard that with Royal Greenland at the committee the other day.

What are you going to do to address the issue of foreign ownership of quota and processing in our country? It is a huge economic leakage, and it's having a huge impact on coastal communities.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

As I said earlier, this is not an easy thing to untangle. There are many different webs that you have to unwind to get to where ownership is. I'm going to turn to my deputy to see if he has anything to add, but I know that this is ongoing work within the department. It is something that we committed to doing after we received the committee report, but Deputy Sargent....

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'll save it for your deputy, because we actually want to see results. I want to make sure that it is a priority of your government.

In the information provided by conservation and protection at committee, we heard from them that there's an average of two violations a year for the retention of undersized prawns, that the regulation of non-retention of undersized prawns is not a conservation measure, and that the two and a half minutes to thaw a tub of prawns can rationally be considered to make them “readily available” or “readily determined”. Are you prepared to authorize the harvest community to continue to freeze their catches in the manner that they've been doing for the past 50 years, which has been demonstrated by precedent as well, as a previous DFO lead prawn manager explained, and has been approved by conservation and protection as being in accordance with their existing regulations?

Everybody's dumbfounded on why you haven't interceded, especially given the testimony that we heard at committee that there just wasn't justification.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

As I said earlier, we have actually put in place something for this year. We are continuing to work with the industry to determine whether or not that is something that can continue into the future. We will make sure that this is done hand in hand with the industry, but I will give you my commitment right now to making sure that we solve this issue.