Fisheries Committee on Oct. 26th, 2020

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you.

This question can go to either one. I want to keep it in context because we had two wonderful presentations, briefs from Chief Prosper and Chief Gray, that referenced numerous times that first nations people, particularly Mi'kmaq, enjoy being out on the water exercising their right and participating in the fishery.

What's been expressed to me from time to time, including the need for first nations people to have access to the modern fishery because of the high unemployment rate in some of the first nations communities, is the practice of non-first nations people fishing these rights, and not the first nations people in every situation. Please comment because I want to hear from both of you.

[Ian MacPherson]

Here I will allude to the recent Macdonald-Laurier Institute report that profiled some of the first nations communities that were fishing their licences. The proceeds from those licences were going back into the community and there were some real success stories.

To me, there are some statistical and documentable cases of communities benefiting if they are fishing their own licences.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

You didn't comment on the practice. Is it happening where non-first nations people are fishing under the rights of first nations?

[Bobby Jenkins]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, it's happening in certain harbours where non-indigenous fishermen are helping indigenous fishermen do the capture. I'm not involved in it myself. I don't know people who are, but I know it is going on.

Maybe our counterpart in Cape Breton knows more about it over there.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Mr. Barron, could you respond?

[Michael Barron]

Are you talking about leasing out the licences and non-aboriginals fishing them? Is that what you're alluding to?

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Yes.

[Michael Barron]

There are instances of that. There are none here in my LFA that I'm aware of, but there are some.... I'm sorry, there actually are some in my LFA, but it's not happening in the direct area where I fish. However, it is what's going on throughout Nova Scotia.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We'll now go to Madame Gill for six minutes or less, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses who agreed to be here today.

My question concerns the negotiations. You heard Chief Prosper and Chief Gray say earlier that there must be a real nation-to-nation negotiation between indigenous nations and the Government of Canada.

Fishers are asking to have their voices heard. How could the government take into account the interests of non-indigenous fishers? I gather that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans isn't representing them at this time.

How could fishers be more involved in the conversation? The question is for Mr. MacPherson, Mr. Barron and Mr. Jenkins.

[Ian MacPherson]

One of the ideas that's been put out there for some time now is that there would be a liaison between non-aboriginal fishing organizations and the negotiation table dealing with these kinds of issues and making our concerns known. It would obviously have to be a person of trust.

At the end of the day, there are ways to work around this. We understand the nation-to-nation aspect, but I think people can understand that when there are 10,000 harvesters and one individual negotiating on our behalf, and the response is that they can't tell us what's going on because it's nation to nation, this has led to a lot of frustration and, unfortunately, to some of the situation that's out there now.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Barron, would you like to respond?

[Michael Barron]

We're just asking DFO to help facilitate, and by getting this outside party to help direct the conversation, you can get more people from the industry and first nations at the table, so we can start the discussion.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

You're talking about nation-to-nation negotiations regarding rights and how they'll be divided. Out of curiosity, how do you view this negotiation work? How is it structured? Are you talking about negotiations between non-indigenous and indigenous fishers? I think that this is what Mr. MacPherson and Mr. Jenkins were talking about.

[Michael Barron]

No. We need first nations, harvesters and government in the same room having the conversation.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Okay.

[Michael Barron]

It's not government and harvesters or government and first nations. All three parties have to be sitting around the table for the discussion.

[Ian MacPherson]

I think one of the key issues we're dealing with right now is that we've been told by DFO that no new access would be created, which would typically be by more new licences being generated or by some other method. That's an issue.

I'm not so sure “negotiation” is the right word. There needs to be open and honest dialogue about the resource and the sustainability of the resource. If certain decisions are made or ideas are on the table, the focus needs to be on how they would impact the resource from a sustainability standpoint.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

My other question concerns the different types of indigenous fishing.

For several years, first nations have expressed a desire to engage in commercial fishing activities. There's also communal fishing. How do you view these two types of fishing in relation to the concept of a moderate livelihood? Do you think that this factor comes into play or are they two completely different things?

[Ian MacPherson]

Again, to go back to the discussion around the potential impact on the resource, I think a good way to look at it is to look at the cumulative effects or potential impacts on the resource. We need to look at it through that lens and have all harvesters involved with that kind of dialogue. If the resource were to drop off significantly, everyone's fishery would be impacted in a negative way. That would be a lose-lose situation.

[Michael Barron]

You broke up on your question. Could you repeat it?

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

We spoke of a moderate livelihood. Communal fishing is one thing. However, there's also commercial fishing, where first nations are laudably playing a more significant role. From the point of view of a moderate livelihood, do you think that these two types of fishing oppose or complement each other?

[Michael Barron]

Well, as they said, if too much access is granted through communal fishing and commercial fishing and the stocks start to be depleted somewhat, it will affect the overall fishery.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Gill.