Fisheries Committee on Oct. 26th, 2020

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Chief Gray, we know that at this committee we're going to hear repeatedly that Mi'kmaq fishers practising their inherent right to fish is a threat to conservation and a threat to peace and civility. We even hear indigenous people being labelled as criminals and threats. In my mind, the real issue has been DFO's inability to protect the right to fish and adequately support negotiators trying to establish what a moderate livelihood is.

What recommendation would you make to DFO to change its behaviour and engage in good faith not only with the Mi'kmaq but with indigenous fishers right across this country?

[Chief Darcy Gray]

First off, I think it has to be meaningful work with the communities or the nations, however they're engaging with them, and providing the support for true governance that ensures the safety and sustainability of the fisheries. In the end, they have to be willing to make a decision.

In our experience, we negotiated for two years on a co-developed management plan for our treaty fishery. For two years we worked on that. The night before we were about to put it in place, we were told, “I'm sorry, we can't do that.” That, to me, is unacceptable. That, to me, is part of the problem. If we're going to dance for two years and spend a lot of money, time and effort trying to come up with a solution and be told no in the end, that's frustrating.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you both so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Gord.

Now, of course, we could go to another round of questioning, but the time allotted for the committee function today has expired. I will ask for the consensus of the committee, by either a show of hands or thumbs up, to extend the meeting. I would like to go through another round of questioning, if possible, and then go into the second panel. We do have other witnesses waiting.

I see some thumbs up.

Nancy, do you want to do a poll of the vote to extend—

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Nancy Vohl]

No, I can't—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

—if the resources are available for us to extend?

[The Clerk]

Yes, and I do see Mr. Mazier here. I'm not sure if you can see him, but he was informing us that he also wants to stay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay. I'm assuming we're staying, but I didn't see a lot of thumbs up. Okay, now we have six thumbs up, so I guess we're staying.

We'll get quickly to it. We'll go now to the second round of questioning, which would be five minutes, with Mr. Calkins, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Chief Prosper, since the Marshall decision, the federal government has spent upwards of about $600 million to buy up existing quota to transfer to first nation communities with the goal of increasing their participation in fisheries and providing increased economic opportunity for their communities.

It was my understanding that the programs that provided access for first nations into the commercial fishery through quota, training and equipment were done with the intention of helping first nations communities realize the rights reaffirmed in the Marshall decision, and that through these programs, economic activity in the industry on reserve grew from about $3 million in 1999 to $152 million in 2016, according to whoever you would believe on these statistics, including DFO.

How do you view the quota and the access created through programs like the Atlantic integrated commercial fisheries initiative in relation to moderate livelihood fisheries?

[Chief Paul J. Prosper]

I think that access and that capacity did help our communities gain at least a preliminary entrance into the fishery. They supported communities. They allowed communities to grow. I think it's also important to note that those agreements that were entered into were entered into on a “without prejudice” basis, a without prejudice basis related to the rights of the Mi'kmaq and Maliseet people. I think it's important to put that in context.

The other component I would add, related to that, is that I believe that it in no way reflects a moderate livelihood. I mean, it was without prejudice, and most importantly, it was without an appropriate mandate. There's a lot of unfinished business that has to take place with respect to the additional access that needs to be provided to the Mi'kmaq and Maliseet people.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Chief Gray, do you have anything to add to that?

[Chief Darcy Gray]

I would just echo what Chief Prosper was saying. Yes, it did provide access, but that doesn't really address the moderate livelihood aspect.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you.

Last week we heard from a witness, a Ms. Denny, about the term “moderate livelihood”. I'll quote what she said, not to be pejorative in any way, but just because I'm trying to wrap my head around this.

She said that it was more a concept to be able to “support oneself spiritually, culturally, economically, socially”. I foresee that as being a very difficult standard to use as a baseline in fisheries management.

Chief Gray, your nation has recently launched a moderate livelihood fishery based on your own management plan. I guess I'm asking, does your management plan reflect what Ms. Denny said? If so, how are you able to incorporate that into a quantifiable management plan that balances the realization of your rights and the sustainability of the resource, specifically lobsters?

[Chief Darcy Gray]

I'll start with the last part of that question. On our website, listuguj.ca, we do have a copy of our Listuguj lobster law. It does provide a bit of detail around that question and how we've gone about trying to develop a regulatory plan for our fishery.

The other side of it is that even though this is a two-week fishery that we do under our management plan and under the law under this moderate livelihood, going out on those boats with those fishermen and knowing that they are fishing under Mi'kmaq law is truly empowering. It's an amazing feeling to see them out there, with the families who support that, the people monitoring and making sure things are done in a good way, the cooks who are taking the lobster and preparing it for the families, and the fishers who are able to provide a little more for their families.

It really does address a lot of what Ms. Denny raised last week in her testimony. If you haven't been out on one of those boats and you haven't seen how the fishermen go about it and the joy they get when they bring it to elders, it's hard to understand. Once you've been out there, it's obvious and evident.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I'm a hunter and a fisherman myself. Of course, I do so in a different manner, but I understand all of those aspects of hunting and fishing and providing for oneself and all the beauty of that heritage. I'm just wondering more from a management perspective how one can reconcile that.

I know you talked about how you have your management plan, and other nations have similar management plans, and then the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has their management plan. How do you see that blend of management plans working together to ensure that everybody's rights are respected and also that the resource is viable well into the future?

[Chief Darcy Gray]

Thank you for—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, but we've gone overboard. We've gone way past time. It's up to five minutes. Perhaps you could provide an answer to that question in writing. The committee would accept that as part of the testimony today.

We will now go to Mr. Battiste for five minutes or less, please.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes, Mr. Beech.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Just for the favour of all our staff, who are working feverishly in the background to re-book meetings that were scheduled over the extension, do you have a timeline on the second round and when you would expect us to complete it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We have 10 minutes left of questioning to get through this full round so that every party gets a chance to ask questions. Then, of course, we have to suspend for a moment while we do some sound checks, if they're not already done, for the next set of guests. I'd like to get through the same amount of questioning for the next group as well, if we can, to make it worthwhile for the witnesses to appear, either in person or by video conference, so I guess you're probably looking at an hour more, or in that area.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

Mr. Battiste, you have five minutes or less for questioning, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We've heard testimony that within the Mi'kmaq communities there are shared values, language and principles such as netukulimk, as was previously raised. While I understand that each Mi'kmaq community is distinct in its needs, I'm wondering if you feel that there are common values and principles that the Mi'kmaq share among communities that would be agreeable in an overall sense of vision of establishing moderate livelihood fisheries.

This question is for both chiefs.

[Chief Paul J. Prosper]

Maybe I can proceed with that.

Certainly Mi'kmaq people do not exist in isolated communities. We share common tradition, common culture, common language, and embedded within the language there are traditions like netukulimk that provide a mechanism by which to guide management decisions, operations, and things like that. It runs throughout the Mi'kmaq nation, so it provides a certain level of reference and consistency for us to come together and make management decisions that are in the best interests of all our respective communities.

It also itemizes a certain protocol that exists between our respective communities. For example, when Donald Marshall came down here to Walneg to fish for eels, it was Chief Terry Paul of Membertou, the community Donald Marshall is from, who phoned up my brother, Kerry Prosper, who was the chief within Paqtnkek. It allows for a certain level of diplomacy to exist as well between our respective nations, so I would add that.