Fisheries Committee on Oct. 26th, 2020

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Chief Darcy, would you like to add anything?

[Chief Darcy Gray]

Certainly. I think it goes back to the gathering we had here a little over a year ago with the grand council. We talked about moose management and the importance of taking care of that resource and netukulimk.

Something else that came out of there was that there has to be a consensus-based approach through which we can all agree on how things are being done. There's a giving back. There's mutual respect, as Regional Chief Prosper has spoken about, and sharing. It's not all about me and it's not all mine. It needs to be shared, and there needs to be a giving back to the community.

I think that's an important aspect of the fishery and the way we're managing it.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I'm hearing that there's a common vision, common value, common language, and that it's all about sharing at the end of the day.

Thank you, Chiefs, for that.

Chief Prosper, I understand that before you were a chief, you were a lawyer. Can you give me your summarization of what both Marshall decisions said about the Mi'kmaq right to fish commercially for a moderate livelihood?

[Chief Paul J. Prosper]

I'm struggling to be succinct on this one, because obviously it provides a recognition for the Mi'kmaq community, subject to the 1760 and 1761 treaties, to operate the fishery in accordance with providing for a moderate livelihood, which is the final upshot, but more importantly, it provides a mechanism by which we can govern how that right is undertaken.

As we know, there are Mi'kmaq rights, but underpinning those rights are the treaty responsibilities that we are all obligated to undertake. That is something that is embedded within the fabric of our nation. It's also something that I find is recognized within that court decision.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have no more questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

We'll now go to Madam Gill for two and a half minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for both Mr. Gray and Mr. Prosper.

From the start, I've heard you say that there must be a nation-to-nation negotiation. Of course, it isn't the committee's role to conduct this type of negotiation. Aside from putting pressure on the government to ensure a real negotiation and recognition of rights, what role should the committee play?

[Chief Paul J. Prosper]

I would offer something in relation to that.

I think a major role of this committee is to set the agenda for educating your counterparts within government and the constituents that you represent on the nature of what exists with respect to this treaty relationship and the history with respect to our rights.

That is a component, and I think Chief Gray also been mentioned that one cannot underestimate the true value of giving education and proper information to people.

[Chief Darcy Gray]

I agree. I think one of the important aspects here is that it is providing a voice to people. It is providing an opportunity for people to be heard and for understanding to be developed and fostered, rather than continuing the finger pointing or name-calling or violence that's happening. This is an alternative way to address the concerns that are going on.

I think it's important for us to be able to voice concerns on some of the processes, some of the policies and some of the approaches that DFO has been trying for a number of years and that, to us, keep falling short of expectations.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you again, both of you, for your important testimony.

We often hear about how indigenous knowledge around conservation is neglected by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, especially in relation to conservation. Maybe you can speak about the importance of that changing, the importance of investing and capacity building within the nations and how you enforce your own management plans.

Chief Gray, I know you have a ranger program, the Listuguj. Maybe you can speak about it.

[Chief Darcy Gray]

Certainly, and this goes back to Mr. Calkins' question a little while ago.

In our management plan, we have an effort that is authorized and recognized normally by DFO in our fall fishery. It's important for us that we stay within that effort, because that's what the science says. That's what we view as important to the conservation of the resource. To help us in that, first off, our council is there to review the management plan every year. We have our conservation officers, if you will, the fish and wildlife monitors that are out there on the water making sure that, first off, our fishers are safe, and second, that they are doing good things out there. We have dockside monitors counting the lobster as they come off the boat and ensuring that there is a sharing and a giving back in the community immediately. Then we have our cooks making sure that it's a good quality of lobster that's being distributed.

We have a number of people that get involved in this process. It's truly a tremendous effort for us. We did have one incident initially when we first launched this effort. It was an internal situation. One of the fishers went out a day early, so a meeting was had with all of the fishers, who asked, “How do we solve this?” We said, “You need to give all of your catch to the community.” The fisher said, “Okay, to keep the peace, to make things right that I wronged all of you, I will give my entire catch to the community.”

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I greatly appreciate that.

Chief Prosper, did you want to add as well to that?

[Chief Paul J. Prosper]

I think that's a beautiful summary.

Just hearkening back to what Chief Gray has mentioned, when you have Mi'kmaq people out on the water exercising their rights, there's a certain level of responsibility and accountability that exists not only to other fishers but also to the community and also to the creators, to Kisu'lkw and to Sitqamúk, our earth mother. A lot of that is hard to explain, but it's there when you see it within the eyes and faces of those fishers.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thanks very much, both of you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

That ends our rounds of questioning for the first panel. I want to thank Chief Prosper and Chief Gray for taking part here this evening by video conference. Your testimony has been very informative and enlightening to some degree.

We'll suspend for a moment to allow our witnesses to leave and the new witnesses to be added to the meeting. Before I do that, I want to recognize Ms. May from Saanich-Gulf Islands. She has joined the committee as we take part in this study. Welcome.

We're going to get started. Can everyone click on their screen in the top right-hand corner and ensure that they are on gallery view? With this view, you should be able to see all the participants in the grid.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of our new witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. Interpretation in this video conference will work very much as it does in your regular committee meetings. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either “Floor”, “English” or “French”. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses in this second panel. We have Michael Barron from the Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association, and Mr. Ian MacPherson and Mr. Bobby Jenkins from the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association.

We will now proceed to opening remarks.

Mr. Barron, you can start off with five minutes or less when you're ready, sir.

[Michael Barron, Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association]

Good evening.

I would like to thank the standing committee for the invitation to speak this evening.

As mentioned, my name is Michael Barron. I am the president of the Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association and I am an independent owner-operator and commercial fisherman. I represent approximately 200 harvesters here in Cape Breton.

I would like to start by saying everyone has the right to fish safely and that my association does not condone violence. Harvester organizations throughout Atlantic Canada have supported, and continue to support, the Marshall decision. Associations like mine have spent considerable time and effort to try to provide education and explanation to individual members, whose awareness and support varies greatly around the decision made in 1999. I will be honest and say on my own behalf that I am still trying to understand the Marshall decision. That is an issue with a living document. And what I mean by “a living document” is that without a clear definition of “moderate livelihood” for the last 21 years, it has been open to much interpretation. This has caused hardship and uncertainty for all parties on both sides. Sadly, this process of educating and advising members is made ever more complicated by the lack of information and involvement in discussions about “moderate livelihood”.

The industry as a whole generates approximately $2 billion for the province of Nova Scotia. It employs approximately 50,000 people throughout the province. As an example of its economic contributions, 249 harvesters are located in the riding where MP Battiste resides. These harvesters generate approximately $31 million in gross revenue. This is a significant contribution that must be recognized. Currently, the harvesters have had no discussions with their MP and feel discriminated against. On October 5, the stakeholders of LFA 27 wrote a letter and sent it by registered mail to MPs and MLAs, and have received a response, but have not received a response from MP Battiste as yet. All parties must be afforded an opportunity to discuss the respective concerns.

The basis of the lobster fishery management is effort control: a limited number of participants, a limited amount of gear, a defined season, maximum trap size and, most importantly, protection of egg-bearing females and the moulting lobster. The lobster fishery was the first to introduce a limited entry in an effort to stabilize employment within the industry and address the historical trend of increased participation during the high production cycle, followed by disinvestment and withdrawal from the industry by those not solely dependent on it. Even with such limits, licence buyback programs in the 1970s, and as recently as the early 2000s, were necessary to try to match participant numbers with the available resources.

Apart from official rules and initiatives to manage participation, local pressures contribute to the relatively orderly distribution of effort across all LFAs. Commercial harvesters quite logically fear that unknown amounts of additional or changed effort, especially if these are concentrated in a few areas, could seriously reduce catches in targeted areas, while leaving others untouched.

The big question is that if the government addresses rights and provides more access, where will that leave our small coastal communities? If more access is created, it will affect the economics of our coastal communities, as the money that is generated from the fishery stays within the community. In some instances, where indigenous access is not adjacent to the coast, it will move money completely away from the coast, impacting our economies.

Handling lobster at this time of year, post-moult and egg drop, makes them more vulnerable and easy to catch because they are trying to regain strength as their shells are still soft. After the eggs are dropped, and if caught this time of year, they are being caught as next year's lobster. That would leave commercial fleets' catch rate lower, which brings less economic value back to our communities.

According to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, all Canadians are considered essential to preserving Canada as a free, democratic country. That said, how does this apply to me, as a Canadian commercial fisherman? The reason I ask is that we need a common table to discuss the operational issues that are long overdue.

For whatever reason, DFO has been remiss in not bringing both parties together to address this. Since October 2019, a coalition of fishing groups has been formally calling on DFO to put in place dialogue between aboriginal and non-aboriginal fishers. To this date, nothing has been put in place. This dialogue needs to happen to help the sustainable development of the fishery by maintaining the economic needs of the fisherman and sustainability of the species in concert with indigenous rights.

This leads to a question of equality across LFAs, the fishery in general and society at large. All attention of late has been focused on the lobster fishery, which is peculiar to some extent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Barron. We've gone over the allowable number of minutes for your opening statement. We have a copy of your presentation. We're going to have it translated, and committee members will have a copy when that happens. Hopefully in the line of questioning, we'll get back to more of your testimony.

I don't know who is speaking on behalf of the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association.

You can certainly go ahead now, for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Jenkins, President, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. MacPherson and I will be splitting the presentation.

Good evening, everyone. The Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association would like to thank the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans for the opportunity to present during this challenging time for the harvesting sector in eastern Canada.

My name is Bobby Jenkins, and I am the president of the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association.

PEIFA represents 1,254 core harvesters on Prince Edward Island. The primary revenue species for our members is lobster. Lobster will be the focus of today's presentation.

In the events of the past few weeks, there have been many discussion on what the primary issues are. We are here today to focus on the sustainability of lobster stocks and why consistent enforcement of conservation measures is important.

We currently find ourselves in a situation where, as commercial harvesters, we are not represented in important discussions that impact the resource we all depend on for our livelihood. Perhaps today will be the start of an expanded dialogue regarding management issues concerning the resource.

We understand the significant contributing factors to the current situation in Atlantic Canada and Quebec and the lack of a clear definition regarding the term “moderate livelihood”. It also appears that all sides of the fishery are concerned about the escalation of conflict.

I would like to acknowledge that the non-traditional fishers have coexisted on Prince Edward Island for many years and that co-operative efforts, such as opposing the Northern Pulp pipe in the strait, benefit all harvesters on P.E.I.

Our intent today is to speak to our connection to the fishery and also to discuss our concerns. We will also share the mandate that we must follow as directed by our membership. We envision the moderate livelihood fishery that takes place to be within a regulated commercial fishing season.

It is my hope that our discussion today can be respectful and constructive. We are in a very challenging time, where leaders must lead with workable and beneficial solutions for our fishers.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Ian MacPherson, Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association]

Mr. Chair, did you get our document today? We were kind of a late addition....

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

No, we haven't received it.

[Ian MacPherson]

Okay. That's too bad. Anyhow, to be respectful of the time, I'll summarize that document. There were three or four key points that we wanted to make.

In the 1970s some detailed data collection started. We have now over 50 years of data on the stocks and how the resource is performing. In 2005 we had two areas that were in significant decline. Those areas came up with their management plans under the Atlantic lobster sustainability measures. It involved giving up traps permanently and borrowing large sums of money to drop traps. LFA 25 and LFA 26A dropped an astounding 29,050 traps during that period. This is significant.

The question for the committee is this: Why is history relevant to the situations of today?

We have 10 points we'd like to cover. First, the lobster fishery stocks are healthy in most areas because of significant trap reduction and licence reduction in many areas that have been carried out in the last decade.

Two, regulated seasons have been established to preserve these stocks. These season dates are supported by many years of scientific data.

Three, fishing a carapace size above the minimum legal size has been a positive contributing factor to conservation measures across the lobster fishing areas.

Four, international certifications and markets depend on a united and cohesive approach to the fishery in all areas, one that can be documented by third party organizations.

Five, traditional and non-traditional fishers have worked in the past and will continue to work together on P.E.I. on these types of resource issues. In a co-operative effort, one island band sold two licences in one area to purchase a licence in another to be closer to their territory and plant. These changes were unanimously supported by the PEIFA. Recently a new set of talks commenced between the PEIFA and our first nations fishery.

Six, the overall management of the resource must be overseen by an overarching organization such as DFO.

Seven, the positive balance that currently exists in the Atlantic Canada and Quebec lobster fishery is because of specific effort-based management measures. This balance will quickly decline if too much fishing effort is put on the resource.

Eight, consistent enforcement of current conservation laws for all harvesters and purchasers is critical so that any illegal fishing can be stopped.

Nine, the concept of no new access being created in the fishery has proved to be a good one. The “one in, one out” principle of licence purchases keeps access to the fishery consistent, documentable and manageable.

Ten, national polling suggests that it is of very high importance among Canadians for respecting and enforcing fishing regulations and having direct negotiations between government, indigenous leaders and fishing organizations.

This concludes our presentation. Captain Jenkins and I would be happy to address any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, both.

We'll go to our first round of questioning of six minutes or less.

Mr. Bragdon, I understand you're leading off. Are you sharing your time again?

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I'm actually going to relinquish my time to Mr. Arnold to return the favour from the last round.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.