Evidence of meeting #8 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was right.
A video is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Minister, that's not good enough, and I'm not asking you to speak to specific negotiations—
5 p.m.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
—but you can put parameters around what is—
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Mr. Williamson, if you'd listen to the chair for just a moment, when I indicate that your time is up, I mean that your time is up. I'm trying to give everybody equal questioning. I don't want to be cutting people off way before their time is up for a ramble afterwards, so I'd appreciate that kind of attention, please.
We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes or less.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Hello, colleagues, and hello, Minister. It's good to see all of you and the minister as well today.
I have a quick statement and then a couple of questions on conservation.
This gives me an opportunity to give a special shout-out to the commercial fishers in Cape Breton—Canso, who have been demonstrating leadership during a complex, challenging and nuanced time. The same would be said to the three Mi'kmaq communities in my riding.
I want to go on the stream, I guess, of conservation. A few of us have talked about it today.
We've heard here at this committee that the lobster stocks cannot support a moderate livelihood, and that commercial fishers' largest concern—and I've heard this, too, through many meetings I've had—is having a fishery that lasts for generations. Could you tell us about the state of lobster stocks?
The second question is this, Minister. On your statement on Friday around this issue, I'm wondering if you could explain the status of the lobster in St. Peters Bay in my riding and the context of that.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.
I will say that generally lobster stocks are very healthy. The monitoring recently indicated that the fishing activities that are taking place have increased significantly in St. Peters Bay. The scale of the fishery operation currently there is actually even in excess of what is being proposed as first nation moderate livelihood fishing.
DFO is responsible for the overall management of Canada's fisheries and the stocks that they depend on. The fisheries officers are very concerned about the excessive fishing there and about how it could negatively impact the long-term sustainability. We are concerned about that. We want to make sure, as I have said every time I've talked about this issue, that conservation is the priority. As I've said, right now what's going on in St. Peters Bay is more than what even the first nations moderate livelihood plans have indicated they would be fishing.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Thank you very much.
I want to actually build on something that MP Morrissey talked about in one of his questions, which is the government's track record on reconciliation on the east coast. I wonder if you could do a deeper dive on that for us, because I think the track record to date on reconciliation in our corner of the world is an important narrative and an important reality.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
In 2015 when we formed government, there had not been any agreements with any of the first nations in Atlantic Canada. In 2017, we as a government came out with a mandate to negotiate with first nations on rights and reconciliation agreements with fisheries components.
We have actually made significant progress since 2017 on those agreements. We know there's a lot more to be done. We know it is a challenge for first nations and governments to come together to make sure that we implement those rights. As I said, we have signed three agreements now. We have others that are very close to being signed. We know there are communities that want to have ongoing agreements with the Government of Canada to exercise their moderate livelihood, and that has to be the priority.
I will say that we have been working diligently since 2017 when we first got the mandate to do this in order to make sure we could address some of these first nation communities and the long-standing issue of a right that has not been implemented.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Thank you very much.
How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Okay, I have another question and I think it will probably take less than a minute, but maybe we'll have the right amount of time. I'm not sure. It's an important question, not just for those who are here today but for Canadians who are watching.
Can you, in 50 seconds or less, by the way, please try to explain the challenges and complexities of what is happening out of the Marshall decision? I know we have only 40 seconds now, but maybe we could try to crystallize some of the challenges and complexities that you and others around the table are facing.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Kelloway.
It is a very challenging and very complex issue. I've said many, many times that if it were simple, it would have been solved over the last 21 years. We have, a number of times, made incremental progress in making sure that first nations have access, but we've never actually worked to a point where we have been able to implement the right. The right looks different from community to community. It can't be something on which the government just goes in and puts its foot down and says, “This is what a moderate livelihood looks like.” It has to be done with the communities. They have to be ready to have those conversations. They have to be willing to talk to us about what they see as their way forward.
A lot of really good hard work has gone into the fishing plans that we have received so far, which will show us the path forward. I'm looking forward to actually getting some understanding with these communities on these agreements.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.
That completes our first round of questioning. We'll now get into our second round and we'll go to Mr. Moore for five minutes or less.
Go ahead, please.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It's great to be here with all of you today on the fisheries committee.
I'm particularly pleased to be on committee today as in my riding of Fundy Royal, I represent two fishing communities that fish out of different districts, St. Martins as well as Alma. My constituents are watching this issue very closely, because they're concerned about the broader implication on the fisheries throughout the region.
Minister, have you read the entirety of the Marshall decisions?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
Do you know, though, who is ultimately responsible? The Marshall decision, you realize, did not find that there could be no laws as it pertains to the indigenous and non-indigenous fisheries.
Ultimately, who's responsible in Atlantic Canada for the fishery and for policing what happens on our waters?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
The Marshall decision actually said that the fishery is regulated under the Government of Canada, under the Marshall decision. I don't believe anyone thinks that there should be a lawless—I think is the word you used—fishery. I believe that first nations have a right that was also affirmed in the Marshall decision. We need to make sure that we implement that right.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
I didn't say lawless. I said the laws as they pertain to our country. It is the responsibility of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to enforce that.
When I first came on to this committee today, I was hoping to hear some assurances that communities throughout our region would take from your testimony. In fact, I get the impression that everything seems to be going just great from the perspective of yourself and other members. I don't think that's the way people see it.
I hope you understand that the engagement that you've had on this file has communities across Atlantic Canada concerned about the broader impact throughout our region.
What would you say other communities, like St. Martins and Alma, are to take away from the handling of this issue in your own backyard?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Moore.
I would say that because I come from a small rural coastal community myself that, as the Minister for Fisheries and Oceans, I will never do anything that's going to undermine the conservation of our industry or of making sure that we have a long-term, sustainable fishery.
This is critical to us as Atlantic Canadians. It's also critical to us as all Canadians to make sure that first nations who have a treaty-affirmed right to fish for a moderate livelihood are able to implement that right. That is something the Supreme Court of Canada ruled on in 1999. I will always stand and say that conservation is the number one priority and objective. I have heard that from commercial harvesters and I've also heard that from first nations.
We all want the same thing. We need to figure out how we get there. In the conversations that I continue to have with commercial harvesters, with industry representatives and with first nations, they have all said that that is their overall objective.
I am not going to do anything at any point that is going to undermine that conservation objective. The commercial industry is extremely important to us in Atlantic Canada. We want to make sure that it is sustainable for the long term. Those are all things that I am working towards every day.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
Thank you, Minister.
We all agree on conservation, but I would hope that we around the table also agree that community members throughout Atlantic Canada deserve to know what the rules are and that they'll be applied. There's been a complete vacuum on this issue. Our communities are calling out for leadership on it.
Minister, you said the RCMP has a job to do. I would say that you, Minister, and your department have a job to do. That is to regulate the fisheries throughout Atlantic Canada. What I've heard so far has not been encouraging.
Mr. Morrissey mentioned that you'd been minister for a year, but your government has been in government for the last five years. This episode has been allowed to fester over the last little while. We've watched it unfold. It's extremely important for the future, not just for the conservation that I think we can all agree on, but also for the sustainability of our communities and our fisheries.
I think the fishermen in my riding would like to hear a stronger statement from you, Minister, that their livelihood and their ability to earn a living is going to be protected as we move forward.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I'm sorry, Minister. We've gone about 40 seconds over the allotted time. You can submit something in writing if it doesn't get done later in the testimony.
We'll now go to Madam Petitpas Taylor for five minutes or less, please.