Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

I'll ask my next question in French. It concerns the municipality of Clare, the region of Robert Thibault, the former Liberal minister of Fisheries and Oceans, who is now the spokesperson for the Western Nova Scotia Lobster Dealers Coalition.

In a Radio-Canada article dated November 15, 2020, he said the following:

This has been going on for 25 years, maybe longer. In the past two or three years, it has become industrial scale. It has become organized poaching, where people from the Acadian community welcome or recruit people from the indigenous community to come and fish commercially out of season.

What do you think about Mr. Thibault's statement?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. d'Entremont.

Of course, I can't speculate on things that are literally speculation. As I have said all along, first nations have an affirmed Supreme Court right to fish. We will continue to work with them to make sure that we implement their moderate livelihood fishery.

With regard to any type of illegal activity, if it is going on, that has to be reported to the RCMP, and then they have to be able to do their job.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Well, the fishing is under your responsibility, so why was there so little enforcement? Has there been enforcement or any kind of review of what was going on in St. Marys Bay over the last number of years? Have you pulled traps? Have you been checking those traps? Are they conforming, non-conforming? What kind of work has been done at St. Marys Bay up to now?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

There have been a number of traps pulled over the past number of years and this year as well. There have also been charges laid, and I believe there was actually a court decision on a buyer who was buying illegal lobster. There has been ongoing work done. Of course, I can't speak to ongoing investigations about what's happening, but absolutely C and P are always there to do their job. That is their main goal, to make sure that they do everything they can to protect the species and to keep people safe.

I have a great deal of respect for the C and P officers who are working very hard right now in a very challenging time to make sure that they're doing everything they can to keep the tensions on the water low.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

What I'm trying to really get to is if there is data that maybe you can provide to committee on the last five years.

How many traps have been pulled? How many of them have been conforming? Did you end up pulling or checking the traps that Sipekne'katik had put in the water during their moderate livelihood...?

I'm just wondering about data, plus about what happened.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

My deputy is also on this call. I can ask him if there is anything that we can provide to the committee in writing at a further date.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Okay, we'll talk about that one later on.

Let me bump off to something that's a little more disturbing, Minister.

Chief Sack has been threatening everyone who has an opposing view, including you. He's targeted you in a number of articles today. Not that we should all listen to Facebook, but in the most recent post, he wants to recruit warriors to disrupt the opening of district 34.

I'm wondering what the Department of Fisheries is going to be doing to make sure that everyone stays safe during the opening of the season next week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Make it a very brief answer, please.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's a very important question.

I have to say that the priority has to be people staying safe. I would like to have referred this one to my departmental officials, but I don't think I'm going to have time to do that.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Maybe I'll get back to it in my second round.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

That's not a problem. Thank you for that.

Now I'll go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less.

I apologize for trying to get him up earlier.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

No, you caught me off guard, Chair. I wasn't ready, but thanks for getting me in now.

Madam Minister, it's actually a bit ironic, even hypocritical, to sit here and listen to some of the questions from the Conservatives, the official opposition, criticizing you on your approach. You've been the minister for one year versus the period from 2006-15 when the former Conservative government was basically absent on this file and kicked it down the road. As well, you may be able to refresh the memories of some members of the committee here on what the former government's approach was as it relates to enforcement, with cutbacks in that area that led us to some of the issues we have today. You can do that in your answer.

You gave a good statistic where you gave the value of the first nations fishery today versus 2019. We've been hearing from witnesses on this committee, and there appears to be a view held that there's been no access since Marshall in 2019. I know you won't have it here, but could you give a brief overview, and provide to the committee a detailed listing of the access to various fishery stocks first nation community by first nation community so we can see exactly what progress has been made over those years?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Absolutely, Mr. Morrissey. I'm happy to get that information to the committee.

I will say that for AICFI and its predecessors, including the Marshall response initiative, there was a significant amount invested over the past 21 years in programs that have provided close to $530 million for licences, vessels, gear and training. In order to increase the first nations participation in the commercial fishery, we want to make sure that they are able to pursue a moderate livelihood, and this is actually one of the ways that the governments have addressed this concern, but I'm more than happy to get you more information in terms of which first nations received and when.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Minister. It is important, because there has been a perception that nothing has occurred.

I want you to comment briefly, as you said earlier, on how many agreements have been signed since our party formed government versus a period before, because I haven't been hearing much on this. Would you have information on that?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

When we came into government in 2015, there were no agreements signed. We received a new negotiating mandate in 2017. Since that time, we have signed agreements with Esgenoôpetitj in New Brunswick, as well as Elsipogtog in New Brunswick, and I believe, Viger in Quebec. I can get my department to confirm that. Those have all been signed in the past year.

We also have had very good, very positive discussions with first nations in other areas, who I think we are very close to signing agreements with, and I believe we will see those in the very near future.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Therefore, Madam Minister, progress is being made on what everybody acknowledges is an extremely difficult file to manage. Certainly I know you've been taking a lot of pressure, but I want to compliment you on the approach that has been taken under your leadership.

In your opening comments, you made a comment that is important for the commercial fishers to hear from you as minister, that you will not allow the stocks to be jeopardized. That's one of your overriding management issues. Could you speak to that a bit more and the tools you have to ensure that?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Absolutely.

Conservation underpins everything we do at DFO. Making sure that the stocks, which are healthy right now, remain healthy for generations and sustainable for long-term fisheries is critical. That's not only for commercial harvesters, but for first nations as well. Everybody has the same goal here. Nobody wants to see the stocks depleted. Every decision that I make with regard to agreements, with regard to making sure we're moving forward in a positive way, will always have conservation at the head of it. We'll always have conservation and make sure that we have a long-term, sustainable industry.

As you know yourself, Mr. Morrissey, in your area, we rely on it here in Atlantic Canada. The lobster fishery has to be something that we continue to work on to make sure it is there for years and generations to come.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Chair, how's my time? Is it gone?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes, Mr. Morrissey. Just now, your time is up. Thanks for that.

We'll now to go Madam Gill for two and a half minutes, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps some witnesses who participated in the various consultations will agree. I realize that we're getting very vague responses.

We were told earlier that “moderate livelihood” couldn't be defined, because the first nations must provide the definition. We're now being told that the agreements signed with the Maliseet of Viger, for example, are having a positive impact and that the measures under way are also having a positive impact. I have trouble taking a position on this issue. I imagine that the first nations are also having trouble.

I want to hear the minister talk about initiatives, for example. She spoke about initiatives described as positive, including the Marshall decision and the agreement with the Maliseet people. However, people from the first nations are saying that they don't necessarily want commercial fishing.

How can you explain the fact that your statements don't necessarily align with what the first nations want in terms of the proposal and the organization of various programs, for example?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Ms. Gill.

What you actually just said is completely how we've been working. Not everyone has the same agreement on what they want. Some want a fishery that isn't commercial in scope. It's not the giant, million-dollar licences and boats. It's a small fishery for themselves, for their communities. It's not the same. That is one of the challenges we have, that everyone is different.

Some communities want those large-scale commercial fisheries. They want the access and the ability to make sure that they can fish in the bigger picture; whereas some communities don't want that. Therefore, that's what we're doing right now. We're working with those communities to find out what they want in their fishing plans.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

That may be the case. However, I was saying that this isn't what they're asking for. We've heard them say that they wanted certain types of fishing, and that commercial fishing doesn't necessarily equate to a “moderate livelihood”.

Lastly, if we don't want to define “moderate livelihood”, how do we know whether the treaties are good? How can we assess this livelihood if we don't have any indicators regarding the progress of all negotiations and agreements?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Give a quick answer, please.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I will say that part of the biggest challenge of this is to determine what it is the first nations want in terms of their moderate livelihood. As I have said many times, it is different from community to community. That is one of the reasons we are continuing to have these ongoing discussions. Some do want the larger commercial access; others are looking for just a small-scale niche fishery. That's one of the reasons we have to continue to have these long-term discussions.