Fisheries Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2020

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Dr. Fuller, you mentioned in your presentation that there's been a failure by the government to meaningfully educate people, especially non-indigenous fishers, about the implications of the Marshall decision. In the 1991 report the committee did on the Marshall decision, the committee found that the government was unprepared for the decision, which led to violence and confusion. What is clear to me is that the government was, once again, unprepared when it comes to this Sipekne'katik and when they instituted their moderate livelihood fishery. What recommendations do you believe this committee could put forward to encourage the government to make that societal change to accept that we are all treaty people and have obligations under the existing treaty?

[Susanna Fuller]

I do think that we really need all of the civil service to understand what reconciliation is, especially in DFO where the pressure on the resource to actually do reconciliation is real. I don't know that there is a departmental strategy on educating staff on reconciliation and what that means. I do think it will mean not working in silos of fisheries, science and management. It's much more holistic than that.

I am pleased to hear that there have been recent efforts by the Department of Justice and CIRNAC to give briefings and presentations for the independent fish harvester organizations. I think that's a step in the right direction, and one that is probably 15 to 20 years late.

I think that really we all need to be treaty people and have that education. My children are now learning about the treaties in their elementary school, and I think that that education is probably fulsome than we have in the Canadian government, and particularly within the fishing sector.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I really appreciate that, and certainly your talking about young people learning about treaties and section 35 rights, but we've had several non-indigenous fishing organizations appear before this committee and assert that they have the right to be at the table when the Mi'kmaq nation and the federal government discuss the moderate livelihood fishery. However, few of those who appeared could discuss any meaningful reconciliation plans or anti-racism strategies they've adopted. Can you speak to any successful programs that you've seen to bridge that communication gap between non-indigenous and indigenous fishers? If so, how were such programs implemented?

Could you also address the understanding that both ministers, including Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, should be meeting with that nation on a nation-to-nation basis and that they are representing the fishers?

[Susanna Fuller]

I think there's a frustration about the lack of communication and being able to discuss issues that affect everybody, including the resource. I understand that frustration. I cannot speak to any programs per se, or very specific, dedicated policy outcomes that have happened within the non-indigenous and indigenous fisheries. I can only say that people have worked hard to create relationships. At the heart of this is the relationship, and it has been hard work with Bear River First Nation, Acadia First Nation and the Bay of Fundy fisherman to come to an agreement after Burnt Church and after the Marshall decision. There has been hard work in Cape Breton between the fishing associations to come to an agreement. It's not easy. People are afraid for their livelihoods and their futures.

I think, though, that there are really interesting opportunities. We know in that Atlantic Canada there is about a 40% labour market decline expected in the next 10 years. There will be very interesting opportunities to do apprenticeship programs between non-indigenous fishers and indigenous fishers. We don't have the people to purchase the licences or work as crew in the next few years because of the demographics.

I think there are huge opportunities. In New Brunswick, there's a partnership between the Elsipogtog processing plant and some of the crab fisherman. There are examples of where this collaboration is just happening and has happened. I think many of those relationships are quite damaged right now.

I do think we need to come up with different ways of doing things, whether or not that's talking circles or.... People are hurt in their minds and in their hearts, and I don't say that lightly. Friendships have been broken, and we're supposed to do the opposite in the peace and friendship treaty implementation, and it's going to be a long road ahead. I do think we need to start at the wharf and make sure that there is anti-racism education and that people are understanding so that we can move forward together and have resource management and science that will support communities going forward. That may mean changes, but how do we do it in a way that is sensitive?

I don't know that non-indigenous fishers can necessarily be at the table for our nation-to-nation conversations, but again, on many of our fishery advisory committees, there are indigenous representatives and non-indigenous representatives sitting at those lower level tables where management decisions and science are discussed. It's not one table that's going to solve this. It's going to be many, many tables, and we're going to need to figure out bottom-up and top-down processes for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We will now go to Mr. Williamson, for five minutes or less, please.

You're on mute.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Pardon me. There we go. I was thanking you, Chair, and thanking our witnesses.

I'll turn right to our friend from DFO. Could you tell me, in less than a minute, why we have seasons in the lobster districts?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

There are two components to lobster seasons, and a lot of those seasons have been in place for decades—a very long time, in the case of the Maritimes. They are a combination of biological and ecological considerations as well as economic considerations. The biological considerations that we in DFO science can speak to are seasonality relating to life events around moulting and breeding.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Okay. That's what you were saying before, yes.

Why do you think it's necessary to protect the soft shell lobsters, or lobsters that are moulting?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

There are a few considerations. They are more susceptible to both lethal and sublethal effects in handling, simply because they are very soft shelled—

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

That's just the act of fishing. Even if you just throw them back, they're at greater risk of dying in the whole process, aren't they?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

It's the handling of them, yes. Even animals that are, let's say, undersized or.... Well, they wouldn't be soft shelled and buried. Animals that are outside of the harvest window are handled and returned to the water. There are studies that demonstrate that for soft-shell crustaceans, post-release mortality exists.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

[Matthew Hardy]

I would offer, from first-hand experience, that a very soft lobster is very prone to damage. If its shell is pierced or damaged in any way, then it's prone to infection and whatnot, from an individual lobster perspective.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

That's right. The act of hauling up a lobster, getting it out of a cage, and even throwing it back can be quite violent, in my experience. Would you agree with that?

[Matthew Hardy]

There is certainly a higher likelihood of mortality of that individual lobster if it's in a soft-shell state.

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

It does depend on how they're handled.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Of course.

Again, on the back of a lobster boat when you're hauling in traps, it can be a rough-and-tumble environment.

Do you believe that establishing seasons in the Maritimes and enforcing them has led to the higher catches that we're seeing today, that the seasons have helped ensure lobsters are there for future generations or for future seasons, if you like?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

I would have to say that the short answer is that it's unknown. We have first principles, biological and ecological reasons, to suggest to minimize interaction with lobsters when they are soft shell or when they're in their breeding season, but we don't have definitive evidence to suggest that's the case.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

So there's no evidence, going to the 1970s before when there were no seasons to today. You wouldn't look at that data and see that there's been what I think are rapid increases or annual increases in the stock?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

There certainly have been substantial and, I would say, remarkable increases in lobster productivity and abundance in the last 20 years. Whether or not that can be directly attributed to conservation or seasonality is.... Remember, those seasons have been in place for a long time. It's only in the last 20 to 25 years that we've seen this really large increase in abundance and productivity.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

This is my last question. I think I have about 40 seconds.

Can you talk to me? As a scientist, what does the medium and long-term future of the Bay of Fundy look like when you consider climate change and warming waters? My understanding is that's putting, from a scientific point of view, from everything I hear, whether it's from out of New England, Maine or in area, downward pressure on the stock.

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

At the moment, that area is within the core central area of lobster range. If there are negative impacts from climate change, we're not expecting those in the short term.

It is factual to say that at the very southern extent of their range, due to increasing temperatures, we've seen a very sharp drop in productivity of lobster, let's say, off New England, and an increase in susceptibility to disease. Long term, this is an area of concern, and it will continue to be an area of both concern and research.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Williamson.

We will now go to Mr. Battiste for five minutes or less, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you.

Thank you, Dr. Fuller, for joining us today.

You mentioned that there's a lot of fear and uncertainty around the fisheries. You also mentioned that there are some really good practices. We're hearing that Justice and CIRNAC are starting to provide education.

I'm wondering if you feel there is anything we could do with technology or communications that could help alleviate some of the fears and uncertainty out there? Do you have any recommendations for us?