Evidence of meeting #9 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobster.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kent Smedbol  Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Susanna Fuller  Oceans North Canada
Matthew Hardy  Manager, Fisheries and Ecosystem Sciences Division, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Nancy Vohl

November 23rd, 2020 / 4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Welcome to meeting number six of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 19, the committee is resuming its study of the implementation of Mi’kmaq treaty fishing rights to support a moderate livelihood.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of September 23. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entire committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer.

As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

With regard to the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. Today, from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Matthew Hardy, manager of the fisheries and ecosystem sciences division, gulf region; and Kent Smedbol, manager of the population ecology division, Maritimes region. From Oceans North Canada, we have Ms. Susanna Fuller, who is no stranger to this committee.

We will now proceed with opening remarks.

Dr. Smedbol from DFO, you have five minutes or less, please.

4:05 p.m.

Dr. Kent Smedbol Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Members of the committee, thank you for inviting us here today.

This is an opportunity for us to speak about DFO science's role in providing advice in both the DFO Maritimes and gulf regions of Atlantic Canada, notably with respect to lobster fisheries.

My role in DFO science is that of division manager responsible for fisheries assessments in the Maritimes region. I am joined by my colleague Matthew Hardy, who has a similar role in the gulf region.

As you know, the mandate of DFO's science organization is to provide the information and advice for decision-making. In the context of fisheries, this means providing information on the biology of species, the status of their populations; providing advice on levels of sustainable harvest; and using ecological information to make inferences about the health of populations. In this way, DFO's science program supports the conservation and sustainable use of Canada's fisheries resources.

We undertake the monitoring of fisheries and Canada's oceans, we conduct research that addresses questions relevant to our mandate, and we use this information to generate advice through the Canadian Science Advisory Secretariat. This work is often done in collaboration with partners, both domestic and international.

With respect to lobster specifically, the stocks are generally healthy throughout Atlantic Canada. Environmental conditions continue to be favourable for the productivity of lobster in our waters.

DFO science provides targeted assessment for different lobster fishing areas, and these areas vary in terms of assessment approach as well as population and ecosystem considerations.

As such today, my colleague and I are here to respond to any questions regarding lobster science in the gulf and Maritimes regions.

Again, thank you very much for allowing us to present.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Okay. That's just shorter than the five minutes allowed. That's great.

We now go to Ms. Fuller for five minutes or less, please.

4:10 p.m.

Susanna Fuller Oceans North Canada

Thank you, all, for inviting me to speak here today.

I work for Oceans North, an organization that engages on conservation initiatives in Canada's Arctic and Atlantic provinces, in partnership with indigenous communities, as well as non-indigenous fishing entities. We support the implementation of UNDRIP and upholding indigenous rights.

As many of you know, I was very engaged in the modernization of the Fisheries Act, and supported the inclusion of section 35 of the Constitution in the act. At the same time, we were one of the few environmental organizations that also supported the inclusion of owner-operator provisions in the act, because we fully understand their social and economic value in rural communities. We also worked hard to ensure that the Fisheries Act require the rebuilding of depleted fish populations.

My perspective on this issue comes primarily from my role as a biologist and conservation practitioner, but also being keenly aware of the economic value of the fishery to coastal communities, and the relative state of poverty in first nation communities. In my experience, crises emerge, because those with decision-making power fail to make the hard decisions, or tackle the real challenges in a timely, creative and thoughtful manner. As a case in point, we are far from rebuilding the northern cod stock, despite its collapse 30 years ago and concomitant impacts on coastal communities, because we made the wrong decisions at the wrong time, or we avoided making the right decisions at the right time.

The conflicts we see unfolding in our communities, on our wharves, and in the hearts and minds of so many people who are watching what is happening in Atlantic Canada is, in my opinion, the result of failure to address three key issues over the past three decades: ensuring the health of the Atlantic Canadian independent fishery; full implementation of the Marshall decision; and conservation of fish populations. These are not new problems.

I had a chance to go back and look at the Atlantic fisheries policy review, and there has not been full implementation of that review. That started in 1999, the same year as the Marshall decision, and was completed in 2004. I'll just remind you of the vision of the Atlantic fisheries policy review, which said:

The Atlantic fisheries will become a biologically sustainable resource supporting fisheries that: are robust, diverse and self-reliant; effectively involve all interests in appropriate fisheries management processes; are sustainable and economically viable, contributing to the economic base of coastal communities; and provide for the constitutional protection afforded Aboriginal and treaty rights and where Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal resource users work collaboratively.

This is from 15 years ago. It also included commitments to preserving the independence of the inshore fleet.

As you are well aware, independent fishers are the big small business of Atlantic Canada, yet there's been a growing concentration of the resource that leaves many feeling as if their industry does not have a future. Amendments to the Fisheries Act in part addressed this; however, there remains the fear that in any given year, the uncertainty of the fisheries is further exacerbated by the declining labour force, ballooning licensing costs, and an uncertainty about the health of key fish populations.

Fear and uncertainty are significant, but not the only ingredients in the current conflict. The lack of comprehensive, responsible and accountable organization of parts of the inshore fishery also means that they seldom come together on a joint vision for their industry. In my experience, there's been a lack of education by the various fishing associations of their members on the importance and content of the Marshall decision, or how reconciliation can take place proactively. I am pleased to hear there are efforts ongoing right now by the Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters Federation to address this and to improve education.

On moderate livelihoods, the AFPR stated:

An important objective of this policy framework is to provide for Aboriginal participation and involvement in fisheries management decision-making processes so as to promote collaboration between all resource users.

I concur with others who have presented here on the failure of DFO to address the issue of moderate livelihood since the clarification of the Marshall decision. While attempts have been made, these have come at the expense of fisheries governance opportunities. As well, I expect the failure has been in part, because it is impossible to envision the end point. What needs to happen is transformational. It's much more difficult to address an issue in the midst of a conflict, however, conflicts emerge because an issue has not been addressed.

Reconciliation and upholding the Marshall decision and treaty rights was never going to be easy, but avoiding it has made it much more difficult. From listening to others who have presented to you, it is clear that the governance of first nation fisheries is one of the key concerns. The AFPR defines co-management as “the sharing of responsibility and accountability for results between Fisheries and Oceans Canada and resource users, and will eventually also encompass the sharing of authority for fisheries management.” This is what many first nations are asking. Interestingly, a legal commentator in 2001 stated that “The Atlantic Fisheries Policy Review has the potential—though whether it will or not is unclear at this point in time—to fill the regulatory gap that has existed since the 1990 Sparrow decision.”

Finally, my third point is on conservation. In the end, if there are not healthy fish populations, there will be no fishery. The fish do not care who catches them. Lobster has been the saviour of our rural economies, with increasingly valuable exports being realized largely on the backs of the lowest trophic level fisheries.

The lobster fishery requires an incredible amount of bait, of which herring and mackerel have been the species of choice. These are now at historically low levels largely as a result of setting quotas higher than the populations can bear.

As the moderate livelihood fisheries expand to other species and new areas, it's imperative that there be joint data collection protocols, science assessments and consideration of fishery-wide conservation matters to ensure that we are not jeopardizing the future of communities, human and ecological, first nations and non-first nations. Integrating the two-eyed seeing into how we manage fisheries will also be an important step.

Finally, this is just a reminder that Fisheries and Oceans Canada manages the fisheries for the public good, and I would argue that upholding first nations' rights, ensuring the future of coastal communities and rebuilding fish populations are all in the public good.

My final point relating to moderate livelihoods is that the fishery cannot be expected to bear the entire responsibility of bringing first nation communities out of poverty. Much, much more needs to be done to bring jobs and livelihoods to first nation communities across all economic sectors and to make reparations for our centuries of colonial history.

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Ms. Fuller. It was a little over time, but not by much.

We'll now go to our questioning rounds.

First up for six minutes or less is Mr. Calkins.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to start off with our scientific personnel from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I want to ask a question about management.

Notwithstanding that you mentioned that it was your mandate to look after the fishery—and, of course, I think that mandate has been broadened now to include Crown/indigenous relations—as someone who is responsible for the biologists, the biology or the scientific side of it, I'm not going to ask you specifically about whether or not you understand Marshall or Marshall II or all of those things. Instead, right now, Mr. Smedbol, what we're dealing with is access to the fishery, the charter right of the Mi'kmaq to it and the apparent access to management of the fishery, which is, I believe, different from access to the fishery itself.

I would like to ask you a question about the collaborative approach that DFO takes in dealing with its stakeholders and others, and whether or not you believe that collaboration is the best way to go, with DFO ultimately being responsible for the management of the fishery. Do you believe that collaborative co-management is going to work or if non-collaborative co-management will work in ensuring the long-term sustainability of lobster stocks?

4:15 p.m.

Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Kent Smedbol

I may ask my colleague, Matthew Hardy, to jump in at the end.

One important thing to note is that my colleague Matthew and I are both members of the science sector. We're not part of DFO management, so really it's not within our mandate or area of expertise to speak to management or decision-making within the department.

I would turn your question to our role within the science sector and our role in the provision of advice. When we do provide advice or when we undertake our monitoring programs, we do collaborate with a number of other entities, both internal and external to the department, NGOs and other agencies, including first nations.

We'd be happy to collaborate in any sort of monitoring programs in the future, and we are open to have those discussions around lobster or any other species. There are examples already, I think, of fulsome science monitoring and research collaboration throughout the Atlantic zone.

Really, with regard to co-management, that's an area that's beyond our expertise, and I will turn it over to Matt if he has anything that he'd like to add.

4:20 p.m.

Matthew Hardy Manager, Fisheries and Ecosystem Sciences Division, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Kent.

I think you've answered it well. The only thing I would add is that, from my perspective, some of the best science actually comes from collaborative programs that we have with stakeholders in the industry, through which we are able to benefit from the expertise of the fishing industry and other stakeholders and rights holders to do research that we might not be able to do otherwise and to incorporate their views and to be able to more fully explore some of the scientific questions that we're asked to look at as we try to fulfill our mandate.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

In your opinion, then, is collaborative research the same as collaborative management?

4:20 p.m.

Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Kent Smedbol

It isn't necessarily. I think collaborative research and collaborative monitoring can inform management, but they are somewhat separate from the actual practice of managing a fishery. I think I would leave it at that.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

When you guys set a season for a fishery—let's say, in the LFA 34—what factors go into deciding the opening and closing dates, and how does conservation factor into that decision?

4:20 p.m.

Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Kent Smedbol

Seasonality goes back a long time and is based on a number of activities and decisions going back decades—certainly long before we were involved in fisheries management.

There are, I would say, two categories of considerations. The first one is sort of biological and ecological, and the second relates more to the economics of the fishery. We can speak to the first part.

As you know, lobster fishing seasons do vary by lobster fishing area across the Atlantic zone. There are important conservation considerations to keep in mind, and these include minimizing the interaction of the fishery with important life history stages. From June through to September—and I'll speak to my area within the Maritimes region and particularly in southwest Nova Scotia—lobsters undergo several important life events. During this time they may be sensitive to handling, so we would recommend that be considered in management actions.

In terms of these life stages, during the summer months almost all lobsters molt their shell, leaving them with soft, fragile shells for several weeks or months. When in a soft-shell state, lobsters are susceptible to increased mortality due to handling. Also, adult lobsters mate during the summer months. Mating occurs just after molting and involves a significant investment of time and energy in courtship behaviour. Lobster larvae are also released from bearing females during that period.

Those are some considerations I think we would use to inform management around seasons. However, as I said, it's not just the biological consideration. There are economics related to the seasons as well.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

If I—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I'm sorry but you've gone way over time, Mr. Calkins.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

I'm just getting started, Mr. Chair. I have so many good questions left

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I know. Six minutes doesn't last long when you're having fun.

We now go to Mr. Morrissey for six minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up on the answers that were given by Matt and Kent.

You're stating for the record before the Commons committee here that lobster is vulnerable at times of the year.

4:25 p.m.

Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Kent Smedbol

I think there are life history stages, which have a seasonal component, in which they are potentially more susceptible to handling than they are at other times of the year.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

They are vulnerable, though. This is not an animal that is consistent from the time the ice leaves until any time of the year, that has the same resistance to any type of predatory action.

4:25 p.m.

Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Kent Smedbol

Yes. I would just take it back and look at it from a broader perspective. When we, within DFO science, give advice to management around—

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Let me be a little bit clearer. There are times of the year when the lobster is molting and it is moving out of its shell. Nobody should be participating in pursuing lobster at that sensitive time of the year.

4:25 p.m.

Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Kent Smedbol

There are important considerations around seasonality, as I said, and I'll ask my colleague to step in—

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Could you get right to it, because six minutes goes fast.

This is a critical decision, because there has been some questioning that seasons are irrelevant. I just want to be clear from the science side that seasons are important.

4:25 p.m.

Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Kent Smedbol

Handling of lobsters during a soft-shell period or during their spawning might have individual level effects on that lobster, so they're more susceptible to handling. It could lead to increased mortality or sublethal effects.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Okay.