Fisheries Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

If I understand correctly, a fishery is opened by allocating a very small quota. They promise that this is the minimum and that the quota will increase. Then it’s divided up to allocate part of it to factory ships that have damaged the seabed in the past, but are told that they’ll be the ones to go fishing. Yet we’re not even sure there’s a market, because we’re not sure the fish are big enough. Meanwhile, a whole village economy is affected. I know villages aren’t so important for higher-ups in government, but, in Quebec, an entire peninsula’s economy is indirectly affected.

Have you considered the psycho-sociological effects of this decision on villages, a decision made rather late, at the end of January? Has that been studied by scientists?

[Adam Burns]

Socio-economic considerations were taken into account by the Minister in reaching her decision. That’s why she set a new allocation for shrimpers to support them during the transition.

As I mentioned earlier, the total allowable catch has not yet been established. It will be, at a minimum, 25,000 tonnes. Consultations will be held next week and will help the minister make her decision on this TAC.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses.

My first question is for Mr. Burns. There was a letter sent on February 5, 2024, and we have a quote here from Greg Pretty, the FFAW-Unifor president. I want to read this. He said:

The Minister has very clearly failed in her responsibility under the federal Fisheries Act by not prioritizing social, economic and cultural factors as well as the preservation and promotion of the independence of independent license holders.

I'm wondering if you can provide some thoughts on that quote, and provide some further insights, please.

[Adam Burns]

The minister's decision indeed did move some of the previous quota that had been allocated to the offshore fleet and established two new quotas—a 10% allocation for shrimp harvesters, who are inshore and midshore harvesters, as well as 10% for indigenous communities in order to further reconciliation. The allocation key that the minister announced was indeed one that resulted in a greater proportion of the overall quota going to inshore and midshore vessels than the quota key that existed when the fishery went under a moratorium.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Burns.

Do you feel that it's enough? I know there's been a change, but through the chair, do you feel that it is enough of a change to support communities, and just speaking to the concerns that are being brought to our attention?

[Adam Burns]

The minister considered a variety of factors in taking the decision, certainly wanting to provide quota to help the gulf shrimp harvesters transition to advance reconciliation, and also certainly taking into account a number of other factors based on the consultation the department undertook, the discussions she would have had. Based on all of that information, she made the decision related to the quota key.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

With regard to the 10% of the total allowable catch, which you just mentioned as being allocated to the indigenous communities, we heard concerns from the Qalipu First Nation about the allocation of redfish quota to offshore fleets. There are clearly some concerns that are being expressed by first nations. Are you hearing any of these same concerns?

[Adam Burns]

The consultations on the suballocation, including the suballocation of the indigenous quota, will occur next week and all of those views and all of that information will be used to inform the minister's ultimate decision on suballocation.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

To be clear, is it correct that decisions have not been made currently on how that 10% would will be allocated to different indigenous communities. Is that right?

[Adam Burns]

Yes, that's right.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Another thing that was brought to my attention—and actually FFAW also brought it up in their letter—was about the research that's been done since 2018 on the fishing gear that's being used. Basically an experimental redfish fishery has been in place to collect important fishery data, such as capture of under-fish and looking at reducing bycatch and doing so in a more sustainable manner. I'm wondering how all of this research and ample information that has been collected over the last few years is being utilized in this process.

[Adam Burns]

My colleague, Todd Williams, may have something to add since he's the chair of the redfish advisory committee. Certainly it is being analyzed and is being used and we'll be using it as a basis for consultation on management measures next week.

[Todd Williams, Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

That's exactly it. We have carved out time within the agenda next week for these groups to make that information known and to share that research they've conducted over the past number of years with the experimental fishery and their experience in the index fishery as well.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Has this information been shared with stakeholders who are expressing concerns? I see multiple stakeholders here who are concerned that this information is not going to be used in a valuable way. I'm wondering if you can share with me what you would say to those stakeholders.

[Todd Williams]

Certainly. Next week we will be holding a four-day meeting and half of that will be dedicated to hearing views from stakeholders and first nations on their experience in the fishery and their recommendations on fisheries management measures going forward. I can assure them that all of the information they bring forward to us either verbally at that meeting or in writing to us will be part of the record and we'll provide that information. We'll look at that information and analyze it and provide recommendations to the minister.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

My last question, Mr. Burns, is can you share a little bit more about how you feel this quantity of quota being allocated to the offshore fisheries benefits local fishers, local communities, and those who are seeing this resource and marine ecosystem right on their front door steps being utilized for offshore corporate interests?

[Adam Burns]

The minister has made it clear that in terms of the greater than 100-foot fleet and its activity in the unit 1 fishery, her focus is on the fact that that fleet is indeed crewed by individuals from coastal communities in Atlantic Canada and Quebec, and that those businesses and the processing facilities associated with them are located in coastal communities in Atlantic Canada and Quebec so that the fleet's revenue and business activities do indeed go to support coastal communities as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Burns.

We'll now go to Mr. Perkins for five minutes or less.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You can ask, but it never usually happens, so we'll see.

In 2021, I was first elected by defeating Liberal fisheries minister number four, Bernadette Jordan. Quickly after that, I wrote a letter to Liberal fisheries minister number five, Joyce Murray, on the redfish issue, asking about her plans. This was in late 2021 or early 2022. In response, Liberal fisheries minister number five said that they would make sure to do it in a way that licence holders, the allocation holders, could have certainty in the planning of their business affairs. That was in early 2022. Here we are in 2024. Apparently, that means we still don't have a decision on the TAC.

In 2019, Liberal fisheries minister number three was told that the science supported.... The estimate was that the stock was at 4,300 kilotons. Then, fisheries minister number five—I'm losing track of the numbers—was told it was down to 2,500 kilotons, a 42% decline.

What does the science say about why?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

We don't fully understand why there's a natural mortality, as you described. It's still ongoing. That's something that started four years ago for the deepwater redfish, and we started to see it two years ago for the Acadian redfish.

There are a number of factors, including the environment and the availability of their prey. We are doing a lab study to try to understand how much they are impacted by the warming waters, oxygenation and so on. That's ongoing, but we have documented that mortality—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

In the five years between Liberal fisheries minister number three and Liberal fisheries minister number six—the current one—we've seen this massive 42% decline.

What has DFO been doing?

[Adam Burns]

I can take that question, Mr. Chair.

Certainly, for a number of years, we've been engaged in discussions with the fishing industry. It's true the biomass was very large and continues to be very large, just less so. The issue we heard from many parts of the fishing industry is that the individual fish size is very small. There would be no value-added benefit from that size of fish. There's a minimum size to fillet it, for example. Certainly, the objective of the industry is to find higher-value markets, largely international, in order to get the maximum value back into Canada. That wouldn't be achieved with fish that are extremely small.

For reasons we don't fully understand, this stock has stopped growing. Individual fish size is smaller than what is typical. We believe the individual fish are not going to reach a size that is largely able to be filleted. That is why the minister, in part, took the decision to open it now.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Now Liberal fisheries minister number six has reallocated 20% of the quota to the gulf inshore, so far, and said there will be at least 25 kilotons in the quota. However, the science, according to you and everyone else, says it should be at least 88 to 300 kilotons.

What is a sustainable level of fishery catch per licence-holder? DFO surely has done that calculation in making this change in the quota. What is the minimum sustainable amount each licence-holder needs to catch in order to make a living?

[Adam Burns]

That depends on the vessel, the individual harvesting operation and the nature of a particular boat. It also depends on the value-added markets that can be identified by that particular small business in order to maximize the individual value.

It's actually a very complicated question to answer.