Evidence of meeting #101 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quota.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean Lanteigne  Director General, Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels
Patrice Element  General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen
Dominique Robert  Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Claudio Bernatchez  Director General, Coopérative des Capitaines Propriétaires de la Gaspésie
Jason Spingle  Secretary-Treasurer, Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting 101 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Before we proceed, I will make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French, and for those in the room, you can choose the earpiece and select the desired channel. Please address all comments through the chair.

Before we proceed, I simply want to remind members to be very careful when handling their earpieces, especially when their or their neighbour's microphone is turned on. Earpieces placed too close to the microphone are one of the most common causes of sound feedback, which is extremely harmful to the interpreters and causes serious injuries.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on February 15, the committee is resuming its study on the scales used by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to set redfish quotas.

I notify the members that the clerk has informed me that the notice of meeting that went out showed that we would be moving to committee business at 5:15 p.m. I've been informed we can extend the witness testimony time until 5:30 p.m. and then begin committee business at 5:30 and go until 5:45 or possibly 6:00 p.m.

As our first panellist today, we have Mr. Jean Lanteigne from the Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels. You have five minutes or less for your opening statements.

February 29th, 2024 / 3:35 p.m.

Jean Lanteigne Director General, Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels

Thanks to all.

A big thank you for calling this emergency meeting. Thank you also to Mr. Serge Cormier for inviting the Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels to appear before you today.

First of all, a short flashback where as soon as the small redfish appeared in the summer of 2011, we immediately sounded the alarm to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and told them that we were going to have significant issues in our fishery and the shrimp industry if we did not act immediately. DFO's only action was to pull out of the drawers a closure protocol for small fish, and for the years 2012 to 2015, our shrimp fishers were forced to concentrate their fishing efforts in areas where there were few or no small redfish. It was not important to protect the shrimp.

As you can see, in the table attached to my presentation here, as early as the spring of 2016, DFO's science team commented on the negative effect that redfish were having on gulf shrimp stocks. Even though we have insisted in each of those years that we allow a redfish fishery in an attempt to reduce shrimp predation, it has always gone unanswered.

On another note, I would like to take you back to 2019 when Bill C-68 was supposed to modernize the Fisheries Act in order to achieve new objectives and thus ensure the sustainability of our fisheries. Let me quote one of the points sought in this legislation: "For our communities, it will keep the benefits of the fishery in the hands of independent fishers and their region."

Not only has this done nothing to protect our shrimp stocks, but the same is true of the recent allocation of redfish quotas, where it is clear that DFO has ignored its own legislation.

Also, I would like to draw your attention to the Gulf Licensing Policy, a copy of which you will find here in the appendix to my presentation. Let's take a look at sections 6 and 7.

Section 6 states very clearly that there is no ownership right for anyone who holds a fishing licence. It is very clear that the Minister has full discretion to issue a fishing licence without regard to history. The same is true for the allowances attached to these permits.

The announcement that Ms. Lebouthillier made on January 26 that she was relying on the history of the past 30 years does not hold water. It is also necessary to pay attention to section 7 of the licensing policy, which states the guiding principles for awarding these permits. Reading the nine points in the subsection, it is even more difficult to understand how the Minister did not take all of these elements into account in the redfish quota allocations that she has just made. You may also recall the Anglehart Jr. et al. court case before Justice Gagné, which clearly established this issue of ownership and distribution of allowances.

Now let's discuss the reality of the situation.

Yesterday we received the administrative list of allocations for the gulf shrimp quotas based on the total authorized catch, or TAC, of 3,060 mt announced by the minister. The highest allocation for us here is 48 mt. The second part of the Minister's announcement allocates a 10% quota of redfish reserved for shrimpers.

Let's see what this can do. Let's be a bit positive and go for a redfish TAC of 100,000 mt. Without going into details, let's consider the case of a fisherman with the highest shrimp allowance. At a price of $1.25 per pound for shrimp and $0.40 per pound for redfish, he would have an income potential of $220,000. However, the fixed operating costs of a shrimp boat are on average $175,000. It is impossible to operate under such conditions. The solution is to turn to the processing plants, to whom the minister has given the vast majority of redfish allocations in order to obtain a quota in sufficient quantity to make ends meet.

For fishing enterprises of less than 65', in our opinion, this contravenes the law of the owner-operator; for those of more than 65' it is a return to the last century when American and European processors controlled fleets, factories and markets. The story tells us that Messrs. Leblanc, father and son, both worked very hard when they were fisheries ministers to put an end to this practice. Today it's "Back to the future".

How can you, as a minister, as a department, as a government, force our fishing companies to break the law or, even worse, submit to the control of companies that will decide who, when, where and at what price the fisherman will be able to go fishing? Soon, these fishermen will have no choice but to sell their fishing enterprises to these companies or be entirely under their control. These companies will immediately open their arms wide to them because they need their fishing effort, but that is throwing the independent fish harvesters into the wolf's mouth.

In our view, this is a case for litigation against the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. It makes no sense to put in place conditions such as the current situation that force our fishing enterprises to commit illegal acts in an attempt to survive, especially when it is a law of this same department.

Over the past few years, our coalition of shrimpers from New Brunswick, Quebec and the west coast of Newfoundland has asked all successive ministers, LeBlanc, Wilkinson, Jordan, Murray and Lebouthillier, to have priority access to the opening of this redfish fishery with a minimum TAC of 25,000 mt.

We have also asked to be the only ones to fish this resource for the first two years in order to allow producers to develop a market for this redfish, which is in competition with Norway and Iceland in particular, and thus allow a gradual entry. In 2018, Minister Leblanc made public commitments to this effect.

We have also indicated many, many times to departmental staff that we need 2 million pounds per fishing operation to ensure profitability, the 25,000 mt being a starting quota. Our requests have been repeated multiple times, always without response.

Thanks for hearing me, we're out of breath.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold

Thank you, Mr. Lanteigne.

We'll go now to our second witness today. We have only two witnesses in this hour.

Now, from the Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen, we have Mr. Patrice Element.

3:40 p.m.

Patrice Element General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen

Thank you very much, everyone, for allowing us to present our point of view on this issue.

I will need to switch to French.

In allocating redfish quotas, Fisheries and Oceans Canada has chosen to rely on the historical shares principle, whereas, based on the criteria of the department's emerging fisheries policy, redfish may, and clearly should be, considered an emerging fishery.

The resulting allocation is inconsistent with the decision-making framework principles and criteria for granting new access, another Fisheries and Oceans Canada directive.

Could Fisheries and Oceans Canada lawfully contravene its own policy? I don't have the legal expertise to say, but the question does arise.

Now let's discuss the offshore sector, which has received the largest share of allocated quotas.

When we discuss the offshore fishery, we're talking about enormous ships that consume phenomenal quantities of fuel both to propel their vessels and to operate their onboard factories. On the other hand, the fish that our fishers catch is processed at plants powered by hydroelectricity and wind energy.

Furthermore, compared to our fishers' operations, the vessels used in the offshore fishery potentially have a far greater impact on sea bottoms and other fish species, such as Greenland halibut, white hake, cod and, perhaps to a certain degree, Atlantic halibut.

These factory ships process and freeze their fish relying solely on fossil fuels. However, all the fish caught by our fishermen is processed using energy from nearly 100% renewable sources at plants in Quebec and more than 70% at others in New Brunswick and Newfoundland and Labrador.

In the circumstances, the decision by the minister will contravene the departmental sustainable development strategy 2023–2027. It will also run counter to the part of the minister's mandate letter concerning the reduction of greenhouse gases. One could even say, without exaggeration, that the decision will run afoul of the Fisheries Act's requirement that the environment must be protected.

We all know that the shrimp biomass in the Gulf of St. Lawrence is not what it has been in recent decades and that, in its present state, can no longer support the industry and communities.

The possibility of partially replacing the shrimp fishery with the redfish fishery would give people, meaning first nations peoples and fishers from Quebec, Newfoundland and Labrador, and New Brunswick, some hope for better days once that emerging fishery reaches cruising speed and processors have developed or recovered lucrative markets for that new fish.

However, the announcement the minister made on January 26 confirmed what we all expected regarding the shrimp fishery. She virtually sounded the death knell of the Gulf of St. Lawrence shrimping fleet by allocating the largest share of present and future redfish quotas to the offshore fleet. However, offshore fishers can still prosper without those quotas, not to mention the fact that they have little or no economic impact on maritime communities in eastern Canada. I'm thinking here of communities such as Rivière-du-Nord, in Quebec, St. Anthony and Port au Choix, in Newfoundland and Labrador, and communities in New Brunswick where northern shrimp fishing and processing are the main economic drivers. All those communities needed that redfish to avoid the inevitable socioeconomic downturn to which the minister's decision condemns them.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold

Thank you, Mr. Element.

Thank you both for appearing today.

We will now turn to our first round of questions, starting with Mr. Small from the Conservatives.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming out today to take part in this important study.

Monsieur Element, having been an independent owner-operator in the inshore fleet in Newfoundland and Labrador, I certainly know what it's like to go through hard times and to experience the effects of decreasing prices for the product, quota cuts and whatnot.

What's the experience of the typical shrimp harvester now in your region of the Gulf of St. Lawrence? What are they going through right now?

3:45 p.m.

General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen

Patrice Element

The last two years have been extremely difficult because of the reduced quotas, the lower biomass, the much lower catch rates and the market difficulties. The market for cold-water shrimp has not been as good since the pandemic as it has been for snow crab and lobster, for example, and the cost of fuel has hurt us very much.

I'll let Mr. Lanteigne speak for New Brunswick, but it's fair to say that most of our harvesters in the last two years have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's been extremely difficult.

Again, we knew that 2024 would be even more difficult, but before the decision of the minister, we had some hope that in the long term, significant allocation of redfish would allow us to pull our heads out of the water. Excuse the bad play on words, but the decision made to allocate most of the redfish quota to offshore companies—because we're not talking about harvesters here; we're talking about companies—has more or less killed our future.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

The effect of the decline in the shrimp on the harvesters has been pretty bad, from what you're saying.

How is this affecting the folks who live in adjacent coastal communities throughout the gulf who make a living in processing shrimp in the onshore processing plants?

3:45 p.m.

General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen

Patrice Element

I will give you the example of our community, the Rivière-au-Renard—Fox River—in Gaspé.

Rivière-au-Renard is a community of about 4,000 people. If you include the two processing plants, the harvesters themselves—the captains and their crews—plus the services like the welding shops and the electronics shops, just in Rivière-au-Renard—a community of 4,000 people—we are talking between 400 and 425 jobs that would disappear if there was no shrimp fishing and processing anymore.

It's a catastrophe. Putting it on the scale of Quebec City, we're talking about 80,000 jobs.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you.

What do you think the number one factor is in the decrease of the shrimp biomass in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?

3:45 p.m.

General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen

Patrice Element

Everyone agrees that the three factors are predation by redfish, higher water temperature and lower oxygen content. People don't agree on which one is the most important factor, but if you're asking me what I think personally, I think that predation by redfish is the most important factor.

There are four areas where the stock is found. The estuary zone in the gulf is the one area where the stock is in relatively good health and the biomass is in better shape, and that is the one area where there are few or no redfish.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Of all the groups negatively impacted by the rise of the redfish biomass, of all the groups that sought quota, who would be the most negatively impacted?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen

Patrice Element

It would be all the shrimpers, of course, without a doubt.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

The minister's right hand, Adam Burns, was here at the last committee meeting, and he was asked at that meeting how much redfish would be required by the typical owner-operator enterprise to make them viable. Did I just hear you say that it was about 1,000 tonnes per enterprise?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen

Patrice Element

I'm sorry. Can you say that again?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

On the amount of redfish that would be required by the typical enterprise to make it viable right now, did I hear you say it's about two million pounds?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen

Patrice Element

Mr. Lanteigne said that.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Oh, I'm sorry.

Do you agree with Mr. Lanteigne?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Quebec Office of Shrimp Fishermen

Patrice Element

We would need a much more significant amount than we have now and can hope for in the future, with only 10% of the allocation. I would say that something in the range of a million pounds or two million pounds would be....

Again, it depends on a lot of factors. The cost of operations and the price that we get—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

I have one more question that I want to get in right now.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold

You have nine seconds, Mr. Small.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Do you think the minister has done everything she can to work on behalf of the owner-operators in the Gulf of St. Lawrence to develop this redfish fishery, knowing that the biomass has been swelling since around 2012-2013? That's when they realized it was there.

Do you feel this minister has lived up to her responsibility to owner-operators in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold

We'll have to leave it for you to answer in a further round.

You're well over time, Mr. Small. Thank you.

We'll go on to our next questioner now, from the Liberal side. That is Mr. Cormier, who's online.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lanteigne and Mr. Element, thank you for being with us.

I know it isn't easy right now. Mr. Lanteigne, we had a chance to meet recently and do some brainstorming. I only have six minutes, and I'd like to use this time with you to find out what kind of help you need.

First of all, Mr. Lanteigne, how many pounds or tons of redfish do you think each shrimper should be allowed to catch?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels

Jean Lanteigne

We think the minister's plan isn't working and won't work. It's with a view to forgetting shrimp altogether that I said earlier in my opening remarks that we wanted a starting quota of 25,000 tonnes allocated exclusively to shrimpers.

More specifically, you're asking me what the necessary number of pounds or tonnes would be. Right now, from what we're hearing, the market price for redfish is 40¢ a pound. So two million pounds would allow for an income of $800,000, which is a minimum threshold that would allow our shrimpers to get through the crisis. So to answer your question, I would say that a quota of two million pounds of redfish is required.

If we don't have that, among the assistance measures that would allow us to survive in the long term, there are—