Fisheries Committee on March 19th, 2024

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Chief Superintendent Black.

I have some ATIP information here. I would say there are about 50 reports of illegal elver fishing. I opened the page and I was very surprised to see this report of seven or eight people setting up nets and fishing for elvers near Yarmouth. They stated there are vehicles, but did not have descriptions. There were no descriptions of the vehicles, including licence plates or who owned them. They also stated some are indigenous and some are not, but there's no fishing allowed in the area.

The thing that got me is that some were indigenous and some were not. What does that have to do...? Why would that language be in an email that's coming from an official in your department?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

I'm not aware of the documents you're sharing with us today.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

These are from an ATIP. They were provided by the RCMP.

[C/Supt Sue Black]

Was that in Nova Scotia?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Yes.

[C/Supt Sue Black]

I have no background on it, so I can't answer why the comments were made in that email.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

If we have to distinguish between indigenous and non-indigenous people, it makes me think that there's some kind of directive coming down from the minister.

Was there, in fact, a directive delivered to the RCMP on how to enforce the law, depending on the ethnicity of the poachers?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

No, there was not such a directive.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Why would that be laid out—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Your time has expired, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.

I want to thank everyone here today for their service—and those who are online, of course.

I think it's important to come back to the facts and what people are feeling. The facts are that last year, we had an unprecedented onslaught, particularly in the South Shore, but also in different parts of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. We heard a lot of testimony here, but we also heard a lot in phone calls and emails from people who were concerned or worried. People are fearful.

What I've seen this year.... Again, these are my observations, but they're from some information in relation to what's going on with C and P and the RCMP, even since we last chatted. Between March 6 and 18, I believe, there were about 33 arrests, six vehicles seized, 63 nets seized and one firearm seized. We had a C and P officer who was rammed by an alleged criminal.

These men and women are putting their lives on the line for their fellow brothers and sisters. It is complicated. I'm fearful for these individuals who are laying their lives on the line for us, but they're doing it, and for the last couple of weeks, they have seemingly been doing a much better job. I commend C and P and the RCMP for what they do when they go into those situations, because they don't know what's going to happen. I appreciate it so much.

I want to stick with the South Shore for a bit, which is in Mr. Perkins' riding. There's been a lot of activity there, in particular.

This is to the RCMP. We hear time and time again about organized crime. Can you give us any type of information on organized crime? To what degree is it being investigated? What's the follow-up?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

One of the RCMP's national priorities is organized crime, but unfortunately, I can't speak to specific ongoing investigations. Organized crime entities are involved in many commodities. I'll leave it at that.

We take complaints seriously and follow up on any that fall within our mandate. Our members across the province work very hard to build trust with communities and encourage Nova Scotians to come forward to report crimes that may be affecting their safety. Through direct contact with police and through the crime stoppers program, when we get complaints that are linked to organized crime, we investigate them.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I appreciate that.

How closely are the RCMP and C and P working together? I keep hearing that they are. How close are they?

I would appreciate it if you could keep it brief. Thank you.

[C/Supt Sue Black]

We meet regularly with DFO enforcement officials—C and P—on the elver issue to share information that's related to our mandates, if we hear of any information that might assist them or vice versa. We share regularly and try to stay on top of things as they evolve, if that answers your question.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

I'll just stay with the RCMP for one more question, and then I want to go to CBSA.

Has the ministry of fisheries ever directed the RCMP to do anything, ordered you or told you what to do?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

No, they have not.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] the ministry and the RCMP. There's a reason why they are separate. Isn't that right?

[C/Supt Sue Black]

I'm sorry. The first part of your question dropped.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I said that there's a reason for the separation between the ministry and the police officers, the RCMP provincially. You would never hear from a minister ordering you what to do, where to go or what to investigate.

[C/Supt Sue Black]

Exactly. We operate independently of any political interests.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

I have 30 seconds.

In terms of CBSA, one of the witnesses talked about hand-held devices that can really dive into what's in a crate or a box. Do we use them now? Are we looking at using new technological tools that lend themselves to better traceability and better observation? Clearly, elvers are going to Halifax port, Montreal port, Montreal airport and Toronto airport. Are we investigating any new tools to uncover elvers?

[Dominic Mallette]

We're not investigating the use of new tools. I believe that we have the tools that are necessary to identify the commodity in question—again, outside of traceability, for examination purposes. That's how I'm responding to the question.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

We'll go to Madame Desbiens now for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are two things I want to dig into.

First of all, money is the sinews of war. Because of fines, 99% of people wear their seat belt. Even if you're not the one putting that kind of thing in place, do you think that increasing fines give you more leverage? My husband was a police officer, so that's one of the terms we use. It's easier to deter offenders when there's a way to punish them. The problem is that rule-followers are being punished. They're losing their income.

So, first, can substantially higher fines deter offenders?

Second—you may tell me this is a question for the government—could we look at reinvesting the money that police recover from the black market to help people dealing with drug problems or revenue from traffic fines to maintain roads? That's what we do in Quebec. That money goes back into the system, so it ends up costing the government nothing.

Do you think that makes sense, or do you think it would have no impact on these crimes?