Fisheries Committee on March 19th, 2024

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's only frivolous to those who don't care about the cost of fish and the business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Morrissey, you have the floor.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would expect the Liberals to think that it's frivolous, because they are defensive and losing on the carbon tax.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Perkins—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Mr. Chair, we could have a long debate, as in the House, but let's deal with the facts as they relate to the commercial fishery. I may have some questions on carbon pricing, but nobody has disputed the fact that carbon-emitting fuels are leading to global climate change and warming. We, on the east coast, are on the front lines of that.

If somebody has a pragmatic, realistic plan for slowing global climate change, which would affect every fishery here, including elvers, then let's look at that particular one. However, to table a motion at the last moment talking about the impact carbon pricing is having on the inputs to commercial fisheries.... Let's be honest about it. The fuel used in commercial fisheries, which is diesel and gasoline, is exempt—for the fourth time—and always was exempt. It's the same as it is for farmers.

However, Conservatives will continue to use that phrase in the House of Commons and before committees, which is erroneous.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Perkins, go ahead on your point of order.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would like to let you know that I just got a text from a fisherman who said he's not exempt from the carbon tax, so maybe you want to talk to fishermen.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Well, then somebody has poor accounting. There's no carbon tax on diesel fuel and gasoline used in commercial fisheries, which is the same as in farming. That is a fact.

Based on that, I would call for us to adjourn the debate on this motion at this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

There is a motion to adjourn the debate.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

The motion is adopted.

We'll now vote on the motion from Mr. Arnold.

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway, for five minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you to the witnesses for coming.

I've had the pleasure of talking to Mr. King, Ms. Carey, and Mr. Townsend. My condolences to you on your loss. I lost my mom in January. Those significant losses have such an impact, and then you're put in a situation like the one you're facing with respect to elvers. I just want to acknowledge that, and thank you for coming to put a face to the elver situation we find ourselves in.

I want to stick to traceability for a second. We know that's an important piece in the tool box with respect to ensuring that we have a vibrant fishery. We talked with the last witnesses—and I don't know if you had a chance to hear their testimony—about the regulatory framework, and that it needed to be broad and deep.

I'm wondering about the traceability aspect of it. Mr. King, I think you mentioned in previous testimony that it's not a silver bullet, but it's important. I want to give you this opportunity, because what we need is not just to hear from industry, but to follow industry's lead on things.

This is for all three of you. When we look at traceability being key, can you highlight some of the other things that...? The minister's in front of you right now, and you have 30 minutes. What are the items that could help, hypothetically, this year and going forward? Can you draw upon the experiences of the Maine fishermen? My understanding of the Maine example is that they put a lot of work and effort into it, but they didn't necessarily get it right the first year. They refined it and learned from best practices, and things of that nature.

I'm wondering if you could take those two items and maybe splice them together. Could you also take this opportunity for some lasting statements that you want every parliamentarian to hear? It doesn't really matter if you're Conservative, New Democrat, Bloc, or Liberal. I put all of that stuff away. Those could be the talking points from the respective cloakrooms of the parties. It's about people. It's about the resource, and it's about an industry that we hold dear.

I want to give that to you.

[Stanley King]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

What I would like to say to the minister and yourself, Mr. Kelloway, again, is that you can't take what the region tells you as fact. I've listened to many of your TV and radio interviews. To tell you that it was partly disinformation fed—through no fault of your own—by DFO would be a fact.

The species is not at risk. We have a lot of data. We have 30 years of data. The best dataset in North America says that, and we can support that. DFO's own scientists say that. Conservation is out of the question. The traceability system can be implemented in less than one year. Maine did it. Was it perfect the first year? It probably wasn't, but it would definitely be good enough to save 1,100 jobs. Enforcement isn't impossible. They say, “Oh, it's 200 or 300 rivers.” No, it's about 100 rivers and it's three months long. You could do one a night and get them all done. You would see illegal fishers quickly drop off. There's no question about that.

To point at Deputy Minister Gibbons' previous testimony, shutting the season down will provide no clarity. It didn't provide clarity during the last shutdown. It didn't provide the clarity in 2020. All it does is make life easier for DFO and harder for us.

To comment on the Maine system, we can do traceability. Ms. Carey said she could have done it in three months if DFO had allowed us to do it, but they won't. Maine also has a huge fine system. If you get caught poaching elvers once, it's $25,000. If you get caught twice, it's mandatory jail time. In Canada, last year, there were 1,400 reports of poaching to DFO. They'll admit that people reported to them 1,400 times. They made 60 arrests. Those arrests won't even make it to 60 charges. Those charges, if they are successfully convicted, are $500, and you can rack up five or 10 of them. It's the cost of doing business.

The last thing I would like to say is that DFO will not protect our long-term scientific study. We put our blood, sweat, tears and money into it. We all lost our jobs, and the first thing we said this year, after hearing this, was that we need the science to go forward. We're willing to pay the money. We're still willing to do the work, even unemployed. DFO will not help protect that study. We asked them over 30 times last year to protect the East River study from poaching so we could get the data. They wouldn't do it, but they're the first ones to point back at us and say, “Oh, the science study didn't run last year so, you know, we'd better be cautious, because we don't have the data to support that the industry is sustainable.” They're playing both sides of the fence.

I apologize for taking up so much time, but that's what I would like to point out.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I don't know how much time I have left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have none left.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

Before I go to Madame Desbiens, I'd like to welcome Mr. Généreux, who is here to fill in for Mr. Perkins. I will say that I hope he's on my shooting team again at Stittsville Shooting Ranges. I hope he brings his son along. We won first place last year because of those two gentlemen.

Madame Desbiens, you have two and a half minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very troubled by what you're saying about how little interest there is in saving this fishery. It's like they don't care. It's like a hot potato everyone is passing on. That's deplorable.

I wonder if we should invite you to testify in the presence of DFO representatives. I don't know if that can happen. I'm trying to think of a solution.

The department isn't listening to you or doesn't seem to be listening to you, so I'm looking for a way to get your message across. The committee can send that message. I think everyone heard it loud and clear, and Mr. Kelloway said it in a non-partisan way.

You speak for 1,100 fishers. How many of you have no income right now? I just want to get a sense. Employment insurance is one thing, but are all those people unemployed?

[Genna Carey]

Yes, I believe that, for those folks who are employed in this industry, as Zach can attest to, employment insurance has run out at this point. There's nothing to fall back on. They are looking to get new jobs. Some of my employees have scrambled and have found some—certainly not replacement employment, but something to allow them to feed their families. Others have not, and they're not sure what they're going to do.

As we said, it's such a tough economic time. The loss of any job is felt deeply in small communities.

Do you have anything to add to that?

[Zachary Townsend]

I would just add that, after last year, there were so many people hurting because the fishery was shut down after two weeks. I want to add to the point that many people were barely able to get through to this year because of that shutdown. They've shut this fishery down three times in five years, which, in my opinion, would be considered a catastrophe anywhere, a failure of government, would it not?

I want to communicate the rage that so many of my colleagues feel. They wonder why it is a prerequisite that they lose their jobs for DFO to do its job. Why do we need to lose our jobs in order for DFO to enforce the law?

Thank you. I'm sorry for getting emotional.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

That's no problem.

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

Unfortunately, Ms. Barron, that chews up our three hours of committee business today. We're at the 6:30 point, and our witnesses have been here and have been generous with their time.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Mr. Chair, can I ask for unanimous consent to be able to take my two and a half minutes of questions? Is that an option?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

All right.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I'm going to ask her a question before I give my consent.

Ms. Barron, is that an “I love oil and gas” badge that's over there on your bulletin board over your right shoulder?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[A voice]

I think that's fake news, Cliff.