Fisheries Committee on April 30th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 107 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Please address all comments through the chair.

Before we begin, I would like to remind all members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventive measures. To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times.

As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents.

All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please use only an approved black earpiece. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of the meeting.

When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the middle of the sticker for this purpose, which you will find on the table, as indicated, where you're sitting. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. The room layout has been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chance of feedback from an ambient earpiece.

These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption, and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

Thank you all for your co-operation.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on June 16, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the population sustainability of Yukon salmon stocks.

On our first panel today, we have, from the Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation, Chief Pauline Frost. We also have the chair of the Yukon Salmon Sub-Committee, Mr. Tim Gerberding.

Thank you for taking the time to appear. You will each have five minutes or less for your opening statement.

Chief Frost, you have the floor first.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chair....

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Go ahead, Mr. Cormier.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I have just a quick point of clarification.

Did the clerk receive any indication from the minister that she will be coming to the committee in the coming weeks or months? Did you have any conversation or receive any emails regarding this?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Geneviève Dubois-Richard]

Yes, I have received communication from the minister's office. She will be available on June 6 for one hour and on September 26 for one hour.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We will go back to you, Ms. Frost.

[Chief Pauline Frost, Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation]

Thank you for this opportunity. I appreciate presenting in person. I apologize for my last opportunity to speak to you, which was via Zoom. I was away at the international treaty discussions on the Yukon River salmon and I couldn't make the call.

I am the chief of Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation. It's a northern community in north Yukon. It's on the tributary of the Porcupine River and the Crow River.

We are the farthest-reaching community that the Yukon River salmon travel to. It's probably one of the longest migratory routes of salmon in the world. We are a remote nomadic people. We live solely on our subsistence way of life, although we are very progressive with respect to our interaction with the rest of the world.

As for my history, previous to this I was the minister of environment for the Government of Yukon. I've met numerous times with the federal fisheries minister, and I also have sat on the Yukon River Panel for many years. I sat as the chair of the Yukon Salmon Sub-Committee. I presented recommendations to the federal minister with respect to salmon sustainability. In 2013, the recommendations that came forward to the minister asked to cease and desist fishing on the Yukon River due to the decline and challenges then with seeing 30,000 chinook and not meeting escapement goals. It's critical to my community.

The community that I'm from is very small, with 250 people. We live in harmony with the environment. We are caribou people. You might have heard of the Arctic refuge, the 1002 lands and the protection of the Porcupine caribou. Salmon is no different. We have our obligation to protect the resources. It's fundamental to our very existence. It's defined in our self-government agreements, which Canada signed on to.

With respect to the protection of land and the environment and our due diligence and obligation to meet some of the climate strategies and climate goals, as the minister of environment for the Government of Yukon, I put forward our clean future targets for 2030, emissions targets, to assist Canada in its objectives. However, at the same time, we are talking about a potential species at risk. I will give you some numbers, because it's critical to my community.

Two years ago on the Porcupine River, we saw 349 chinook pass my community. We have in the last 10 years not met border escapement goals—it's more than 10 years, actually, a decade or more—for Fishing Branch River chum, yet we protected every bit of the habitat. Ni'iinlii Njik, which is the headwater, is defined as a life-giving place. We protected it to allow the salmon to return to their critical habitat and spawning grounds.

If you want to look at the pristineness of environment and pristineness of water, you can walk down to the Porcupine River, dip your cup in it and still drink the water. We have done the due diligence on our part to protect the environment. The circle of life continues. It starts with us and it ends with us. We've spoken about the last salmon to reach the spawning grounds. Now every egg counts—not every salmon, but every egg.

We've met internationally to meet border escapement requirements as defined in the Yukon River Salmon Agreement. That has not been very effective because there are no tools or mechanisms in the agreement to allow us to have deliberations around coexistence and co-management, true co-management, of an iconic species that is at risk. My biggest concern is having a discussion in a year or two about a species at risk. How do we then bring the salmon back? Once you lose a wild stock, it's very difficult to bring that wild stock back to the tributary.

The population has declined. Climate change adaptation, overharvesting, what we've seen in the pollock fishing industry and what we've seen with warming trends in the waters of the Bering Sea are affecting the salmon. We've seen ichthyophonus. We've seen the illnesses that the salmon contract, and obviously they don't make it to the spawning grounds.

We've studied this to death. I've been on the Yukon River Panel now for 20-some years. We have a restoration and enhancement trust fund for supporting the communities in looking at scientific analysis. We have a joint technical advisory committee. How good has that been? How effective has it been? I ask myself that often when I sit at an international table with my colleagues.

This is the first time in our history that we actually have an opportunity to speak about true stock sustainability, restoration and maintaining some form of support for the few fish that are swimming by our community.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay, Chief Frost, I'm going to have to cut it off there. We have gone well over the five-minute mark.

[Chief Pauline Frost]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Hopefully anything you didn't get to say will come out with lines of questioning as we go.

We'll now go to Mr. Gerberding for five minutes or less.

Go ahead when you're ready.

[Tim Gerberding, Chair, Yukon Salmon Sub-Committee]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to you.

As Chief Frost mentioned, the Yukon salmon are in critical condition. Chief Frost was speaking of the Porcupine, which is a major tributary of the Yukon. I was a commercial fisherman on the main stem for about 20 years, although there hasn't been any commercial fishing for 20 years, so this dates me.

As Chief Frost mentioned, the Yukon River chinook salmon and chum salmon are in absolutely critical shape. Last year, less than 15,000 chinook salmon reached the border. The target escapement at that time was about 55,000. That's just less than a third of the target. The new target escapement is 71,000. We're facing a catastrophic scenario.

To begin with, I want to say that it's not going to be easy to fix. Chief Frost mentioned climate change. That's a huge issue—maybe the most challenging.

You have hatcheries in Asia and North America that are pouring literally six billion pink and chum salmon into the north Pacific, which are then competing with wild Yukon River chinook for nutrients. That's a huge problem.

A huge number of our chinook are dying en route to the spawning grounds because they are simply not fattening up in the ocean. They are not acquiring the accumulated fats. They simply run out of gas on the way up the river. This is a huge problem. The salmon that do come are much smaller and less robust than they used to be. We used to have a huge contingent of seven-year-old and eight-year-old chinook that were some of the biggest in the world.

As Chief Frost said, it's one of the longest, if not the longest, migrations in the world. The salmon that are coming back now are about half the size of the salmon that returned 30 years ago. This is a real crisis.

There are numerous causes. Climate change and hatcheries are some of them. People sometimes throw up their hands and say there's nothing they can do about that. I don't buy that line. I do agree that it's going to be hard. I think Canada really needs to step up to the plate on the international stage and begin to lobby to reduce the number of hatchery fish being poured into the north Pacific and begin to take steps to arrest climate change.

I want to address certain things we can do.

As of April 1, the Government of Canada and Alaska, representing the U.S., signed an important international agreement to press the pause button on chinook fishing for seven years to begin developing a rebuilding plan, as required by the Yukon River Salmon Agreement. That agreement identifies a number of factors that have contributed to the decline. We have discussed some of those.

One of the factors is resource development in both Yukon and Alaska. Most of the resource development that threatens our salmon is mining. There are two hydroelectric dams in Yukon, both built 75 years ago. Neither was built with modern or effective fish migrating capabilities, such as fish ladders going up and fish out-migration channels going down. We have opportunities to fix things here.

I think one thing we have to do is clarify responsibility and coordinate action between the Government of Canada and the Government of Yukon because at this moment in time, the Government of Yukon more or less turns a blind eye to salmon. I'm not saying they do nothing, but they consider it Canada's responsibility.

Canada defers to Yukon when it comes to land management in the Yukon territory. I think it's very important for the Government of Canada to engage with their Yukon government colleagues and really get down to brass tacks on this chinook rebuilding plan. At this moment in time, the Yukon government isn't very actively involved in it. I think it's incumbent upon the government to engage with the Yukon government so that we have a multigovernment initiative.

We also have the first nation governments. Chief Frost was speaking about the Vuntut Gwitchin in Old Crow. There are 11 Yukon first nations living along the Yukon River. Each of them has self-government powers and authorities to regulate the harvest for their own citizens.

I think this is going to take a multigovernment, collaborative effort. It's not going to be easy. I think it will mean we'll have to change regulations. It's going to cost money, and it's going to mean sacrifice on the part of industry. However, unless we're prepared to make some sacrifices and to take some bold and decisive action, we're going to lose our salmon.

That concludes my opening remarks. Thank you for allowing me to speak. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

Before I go to questions, I will remind members that it might be easier if you identify who you're asking your question of. It will make things go a bit more smoothly.

We'll start off with Mr. Arnold for six minutes or less.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here.

I will start off with Chief Frost. Thank you for bringing your vast knowledge to this discussion.

You spoke a lot about the size of the salmon that used to return up the river and said you're not seeing that size fish returning any longer. Are you aware of any steps that are being taken to preserve the genetic strains of the large fish that no longer seem to be appearing?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

What are we doing? We have essentially closed down salmon fishing in our communities. It's been 30 years in some communities. That's our strategy. We've seen the numbers returning, smaller returns, and the age class returning at four years, not seven and eight years. We've seen a drastic decline over the last decade or more, so we've essentially imposed rules on ourselves as first nations to not fish and not harvest. We allow the spawners to get to the spawning grounds with the objective that we will, in time, allow the salmon to return as larger, healthier fish.

As Tim indicated, we're small in comparison to the rest of the Yukon River. It's a huge tributary. There are 60-some communities along the river, and we only have a small number of communities in Yukon. There are 11 self-governing first nations. We control our own rules of law that govern us, so we impose restrictions on ourselves.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I believe you said that you were minister of environment with the territory. In that time, were you aware of any work between the territorial government and the Department of Fisheries or the federal government on preserving the genetics of the large fish that are so important to those strong runs?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

I would suggest the Yukon government and the Department of Environment are responsible for critical habitat and freshwater fish. The federal government has a responsibility for chinook salmon.

We have an international agreement. We have worked with the first nations. We've partnered with first nations on projects and initiatives to protect critical habitat, so I would say to some degree that we have. Did we go far enough? Maybe not. Maybe we could have done more. We need to bridge that relationship more now and into the future.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'll ask the same question of Mr. Gerberding.

Could you provide any insight you have on that? We know those large fish are important because they not only produce more eggs, but produce larger eggs that have a better chance of survival all the way down the road. Are you aware of any programs or work that's been done to preserve those stocks?

[Tim Gerberding]

As Chief Frost mentioned, Yukon first nations have drastically reduced and in some cases ceased their fishing, for many years. Those at the headwaters have really taken the lead. The Teslin Tlingit Council at the upper end of the main stem are a particularly good example of that.

I will say this about the genetic stocks and preserving the genes: The only way to do that for Yukon River salmon—these big seven-, eight- and in some cases even nine-year-old fish—is to conserve the wild fish. I think there's a bit of a misconception about the ability of science, and in particular hatcheries, to preserve genetic stocks, but that really isn't the way it works, unfortunately.

There is a compensation hatchery attached to the Whitehorse dam. The Whitehorse dam is literally 3,000 kilometres up from the mouth—or maybe 2,800. It's a long way from where the salmon enter the mouth. There is a 75-year-old fish ladder there that isn't particularly effective. There's lots of mortality associated with it.

Yukon Energy, which operates the dam, harvests wild stocks, has an incubation facility and releases quite a number of hatchery fish into the river. When they release those fish, they clip the adipose fin so that they're instantly recognizable. However, what we have noticed is that the hatchery fish that return to the Whitehorse facility or beyond are markedly smaller and thinner than their wild cousins.

Hatcheries seem like an easy answer sometimes, and they may very well play a role in preserving salmon, but they will not play a role in preserving the genetics of the big fish. I think the only way we're going to preserve those genetics is to eliminate fishing and make it possible for those big fish to get back to the spawning grounds.

Yukon River salmon are unique. They're among the biggest chinook in the world. They have among the longest migrations. It's the wild fish that have the very precious and unique genetics. To preserve those genetics, we have to preserve the wild fish.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We now go to Mr. Hanley for six minutes or less.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much to both of you for appearing. It's really good to see both of you.

Chief, it's really nice to see you here in person. I'm glad that worked out.

I have a few questions for you all. I'll try to be fairly specific.

Chief Frost, You mentioned in your opening comments that 349 chinook passed your community on the Porcupine this last year. Can you compare that to previous years? What would a peak year have looked like in older days?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

Well, I'll age myself by telling you that I am 60 years old. I grew up on the Porcupine River. I grew up fishing, so I know what it was like when I was a child. We saw an abundance of salmon compared to where we are now. As the minister responsible for that back in the day, and then as a chair of the Yukon Salmon Sub-Committee, putting restrictions on my people was probably one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do.

With regard to the number of fish we've seen historically, as the story goes—Tim just described it—they're the biggest fish in the Pacific stocks, and in the stocks the numbers are so small. The fish are returning smaller. We're seeing three- to four-year-olds. That's unusual. A fish doesn't leave its spawning ground, go off to the ocean and come back three years later. Historically we've seen them returning at seven and eight years old, which tells us a lot about the changing environments. There's no explanation. No one can explain that to us.

With regard to numbers, we fly in fish, unfortunately. Last year was the first time in our history we actually had to buy fish out of B.C. and fly them into our community so we can keep the culture alive. That's what we've done, and it's unfortunate, but we want to keep the salmon culture alive and keep educating our young people about the importance of preserving wild stocks and the genetics.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I'm following up a bit on Mr. Arnold's question.

Tim, in his testimony, really laid the foundation for the idea that this requires collaboration and partnership among all levels of government. Given your previous role as environment minister, what would you see now as the ideal collaboration among the three—at least three—levels of government?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

You have an agreement. It's called the Pacific salmon agreement. Out of that derives the Yukon River Salmon Agreement. You have the self-government agreements and the Umbrella Final Agreement. Chapter 16 comes out of that. The Yukon Salmon Sub-Committee is the main instrument of salmon management in the Yukon.

However, we have an international agreement that is not flexible. It is not flexible to allow for a discussion or deliberations on effective co-management. It is very restrictive. Its only obligation is to meet the border escapement requirements.

Now that we have a partnership agreement through this international, political, diplomatic agreement, it allows Canada to fully participate in opening up the Yukon River Salmon Agreement. It allows Canada to participate internationally regarding the pressures of the Bering Sea, what's happening in Russia and what's happening with the harvesting and migration of the salmon further north. It also allows us to have discussions around how we, collectively, are responsible as three parties of government—self-governing first nations, the Yukon government and Canada—to collaborate in Canada on a stock restoration initiative.

We need the resources in the Yukon right now. There's $654 billion allocated from Canada. Where does it all flow? It flows into B.C. for the Pacific salmon agreement. How much of that flows to the Yukon for restoration, enhancement and preservation initiatives? It's nothing. The first nations receive zero dollars, yet we put all of our efforts into protecting and preserving critical habitat. We do our part. We need Canada to participate effectively in an approach of building and bridging this relationship. It's critical. It's essential.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Can we bring that one step further in terms of the mechanism? You're really talking about a broad engagement among Canada, the U.S. and self-governing first nations.

What would the mechanism be? Is this something like a summit or another agreement over and above the existing treaty? What form would it take?