Fisheries Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Yes, I'm asking for the exact date. When did you first recommend the reopening of the redfish fishery based on your scientific data?

[Annette Gibbons]

There were various stages and discussions. We do the science, we do the analysis, we have meetings with committees—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ms. Gibbons, I don't want to understand the process, I want a date. If you don't have it, you can provide us with an answer later, in writing. Time is short, I'm sure you understand.

[Annette Gibbons]

I understand. What I mean is that there are different stages and we provide advice at different stages. This fishery has been closed for a long time. I was not in the department for that whole time. However, I can say that stocks have made a comeback in recent years, and there have been briefings at various stages.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

To clarify my question, when did DFO's scientific data indicate it was possible to reopen the redfish fishery?

I would like an answer in writing.

[Annette Gibbons]

I can tell you that it was recent, because we wanted to have several years of scientific data.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I trust the data, so I'll wait for your written response about the date on which the recommendation was made.

DFO awarded a contract to Mersey Seafoods, which owns the Mersey Venture. It's a lucrative contract, $800 million, to capture redfish data. The fishers are also the ones who will host the scientists gathering the data.

Do you see a conflict of interest there?

[Annette Gibbons]

We have a lot of agreements with companies and fishers to collect data on fish stocks. We don't use Canadian Coast Guard or DFO vessels for everything. We have a lot of agreements and we get a lot of recommendations from the sector. One such recommendation is to develop more partnerships with the industry to collect data because fishers are already out on the water. These partnerships benefit both parties, the government and the fishers.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

How do the partnerships benefit the government? Clearly it's using the property of parties it is responsible for monitoring. How does the government ensure true scientific independence?

[Annette Gibbons]

Our scientists are involved in these activities because they're on the boats. That means we need fewer federally owned boats because we can use boats belonging to fishers and companies.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

I have another question about the redfish quota.

The DFO model seems to be pretty much the same as what's happening in western Canada. Granting larger shares of quota to big companies means less work for the department. Does your analysis suggest that DFO wants to replicate the western Canadian model for eastern Canada?

[Annette Gibbons]

The approach on both coasts is extremely different, because it evolved very differently. The east coast owner-operator model doesn't exist on the west coast. The east coast approach has been based on the owner-operator model for decades. We've recently done a lot of work to codify that in the regulations. The way things are done on the west coast evolved differently.

As the minister said, we've received requests from certain parties. It's complicated. Not everyone agrees. Some west coast stakeholders want to emulate the east coast owner-operator model, but no one in the east wants to introduce the west coast model.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I agree with you. That's why I asked the question. You can see that giving 60% of the redfish quota to big companies looks a lot like what's happening in the west.

I have one last quick question for you. Do you have any scientific analysis of bycatch in the redfish fishery? Given the quota that will be allocated to offshore vessels over 100 feet, I'm sure you can see the importance of what I am asking.

[Annette Gibbons]

Yes. There are a lot of discussions about this with the Redfish Advisory Committee, because we have concerns about certain species.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Can you send us those studies? Is it confidential information?

[Annette Gibbons]

No, we can send you information about the discussions we've had regarding the species we're prioritizing and the management measures we're considering to limit the bycatch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

For my colleague, I would like to acknowledge that the map was very well done.

Now that the chair is setting a precedent that we're allowed to bring props—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I didn't say that.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

—I'm looking forward to the many items I'd like to bring to FOPO. I'm thinking of perhaps some video footage of the damage done by open-net fish farms to the surrounding marine ecosystems as one example, but that's for another day.

Moving on to the minister, I stood up in the chamber, Minister—the days are blending together now, but I believe it was the day before yesterday—and asked you a question about the newest accusations that senior DFO officials are muzzling scientists regarding their research into the threats posed by open net-pen Atlantic salmon farms in B.C. waters and that there's now an investigation by the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner happening.

Minister, are you aware of any senior officials at your agency who are doing anything to suppress science that they didn't want to get out, in particular around fish farms, or around anything else?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

When I took up this position, the important thing for me was to meet with everyone, both those who were for it and those who were against it. Since this is an internal management issue, I think it's best to let the deputy minister answer it. I was told that this was not new news. It's old news.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Just the translation...I missed the last couple of words there, but I don't believe there was a clear answer to that.

I know it's going through the process of an investigation. Minister, will you be co-operating with the investigation of the Integrity Commissioner and publishing the findings of this investigation once it is finalized?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Before I let Ms. Gibbons answer, I can tell you that we'll co‑operate fully with the investigation to ensure that things go as smoothly as possible. I certainly won't muzzle anyone.

[Annette Gibbons]

I'll just add that the commissioner has a very well-established process for carrying out these kinds of investigations and seeks the co-operation of the department, which, of course, we provide.

Decisions on publishing findings are at the discretion of the commissioner, because it's an independent organization, so that really is their purview.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Right. The reason I'm asking is there is a pattern, unfortunately, that we have seen whereby science has not been brought to light for many years. I'm thinking of the science of Dr. Miller-Saunders—I believe that's her name; I can get confirmation on that—that didn't come out for 10 years, for example, around the PRV virus, so there is a pattern of science not coming out.

We know, through the study we did as a committee, that key to this is the way in which the CSAS process is undertaken, who's at the table in that decision-making process, and the information that's being made available to the minister.

Now, I'm unsure if the minister has had a chance to look at the process by which science is brought forward in decision-making processes. I'm wondering if she can share what improvements are being made to ensure that science is not only made available for decisions being made, but that accurate science is being made available.